I agree..

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Dec/061214expdel.htm

Either that, or dump SB and let SStock use full on race tires..

 

I don't agree, as you can imagine. First, the premise is wrong - do you
actuall think the current situation "is confusing to fans and it
damages the credibility of the entire series"? I don't - I think most
race fans know what a SB is and why certain SStock machines are nearly
as fast. Ones that are ridden by factory SB riders and built by the
factory teams, that is, which is the real problem. Do you think anyone
actually thinks, 'Let's see, Superbike, Superstock, bikes look the
same, sound the same, same riders in many cases, but 'stock are more
production-based. And are almost as fast. Now whose autograph do I go
get, again?' I don't, that's just stupid. If someone is so ill-informed
about what's going on on the track, they probably can't tell the
difference between a SB and a SSport machine either. This is inside
baseball stuff.

When Dean says, "I stood six feet from Spies' bike at the test and I
had no idea which bike he was riding, Superbike or Superstock. I had to
ask him.", he is flat-out lying. And the whole point in SB was to make
race bikes that looked like what they had in the showrooms, "win on
Sunday, sell on Monday". So, they succeeded, so what? I think it's more
of a problem that you can't tell the difference between a 600 and a
1000.

To the extent that the series has "no clear focus on one class being
the headliner", it's purely because some of the factories choose to
cherry-pick wins and podiums in the support classes. All four factories
that take part in the series are in SB next year, and that can't be
said of any of the support classes. The fastest bikes and the fastest
riders are in SB, probably the first guy up not in the class being
Hayes, and I wouldn't rank him as being in the fastest half-dozen guys
in the series. So where's the problem? So Spies is fast on a SStock
machine, he's faster on a SB, right?

The current 1000-4 SBs are somewhat crippled because the sanctioning
bodies felt a true SB based on these things would be too fast, but
mostly because they've tried to keep twins of the same displacement
competitive running under the old rules. So do we bump the twin
displacement limit and free up motor mods on all? Maybe - I certainly
think so. Or maybe they also make SStock machines run DOT tires as they
should (slicks being something we can thank Daytona for), and disallow
anything approaching a homologation special (read: last year's
championship-winning R1). The AMA tried banning SB factory riders from
SStock before, and all that did was give the factories cover for
abandoning SB. So shame 'em out, just as was done to get them into SB
now. But that only works if someone cares, and they really don't, I
suspect. Well, Dean does, and you do. But I suspect Dean has an agenda
here, as do you (anything to criticize the AMA, want FX to be the
premier class, bring back Harleys, something).

I agree that things need to be freed up in SB, and noise is definitely
a nice place to start (except Sunday morning at Road Atlanta, of
course!). Beyond that, I don't see a huge problem today, at least not
one that a couple rules tweaks and some discipline by the factories
wouldn't fix. On the other hand, what does dumping SStock from the
program do? How many racers and teams do we lose? How many bikes end up
on the SB grid, with no place else to run? Does that increase factory
team participation in SSport? We certainly lose a race. So are we
better off?

 

I know the difference. But I still think it muddies the series to
have so many classes that are ill defined. (Not neccessarily ill
defined by not having rules about them, but clear demarcation
between the series themselves.

This is the major problem, and should be fixable.

so don't make the rule about riders. Flat out state that factory teams
can only compete in the modified classes (SB & FX) leave the production
classes to the privateers. If the factories want to prep 2 sets of bikes
and the riders want to ride more than one race - run the 600 & 1000.


bruce

 

Evidently it's confusing enough to prevent anyone from sponsoring it..

I don't - I think most

Oh, so you believe organized road racing is only for those in the know.
Yeah, we don't have room for any more folks on raceday..

Depending on the angle I prolly wouldn't know and damn sure know a newbie
wouldn't have any idea..

And the whole point in SB was to make

Now that I can tell 100 feet away, even with my piss poor eyesight and burnt
our ears..

So you admit that the OEM's stack the deck in the SS's, as well as
manipulate ProRacing?

All four factories

I certainly think not, why? Oh yeah, it's the $ issue and because we have so
many tracks that can handle their speed. Hmm, by my count I can think of
only one and then there's the tire issue..(Road America btw)

Or maybe they also make SStock machines run DOT tires as they

So you're saying banning SB riders from SS's were the reason they left?
Maybe fukin' not..

So shame 'em out, just as was done to get them into SB

Say what? The only agenda is to make a viable series that will work well on
the tracks available and have competent people to oversee it. Oh yeah, a
little growth would be good too..

Freed up? You mean even faster and even more expensive SB's? Tweaking(sorry
Kurt) the rules, like a 'Tona pit lane speed? Yeah, that's the
ticket...(not!)

On the other hand, what does dumping SStock from the

I see you choose to overlook the crux of the article,(brand suicide) but
it's okay, I'm going fishin' and prolly/hopefully won't be back for awhile..

Anyway I'll 'fess up, I just wanted to see if I could still wind your sorry
left coast ass up, as it was getting too quiet around here. (heh, I still
can;-) How 'bout this, dump SB completely and only allow tires and exhausts
on SStocks? I'd almost bet that's down the road anyway and not just here
either. Don't get me wrong, I love the SB's, I just don't see much of a
future for them with tracks we have, or for that matter, are going to have
anytime soon. If an all out, full on race bike is needed/desired, let the FX
boy's run what they brung, 600's for 4's and 750, or so for twins and let
'um rip. The fewer rules, the better. That way you know who won't have that
much to fuk up...

 

It would also help improve the quality of the highest series by condensing
the good riders into those classes. Help to lessen the backmarker issue,
too.

 

Now it's in the right thread....


Flammini group still run the 4 classes at the European rounds.

Superstock run treaded tires, like supersport to have the times slower & for
the fans to see exactly how street bikes go on the track.

It is a series that is popular & as shown by Kenan Sofloglu, used primarily
as a stepping stone into the more popular classes.
Instead of 600SuperStock, the AMA runs the modified FX bikes as a
replacement.

If the AMA were to introduce the treaded tire rule, then some factories
would throw their funds back into SBK where it belongs & keep the Superstock
as the development series for cost cutting racing.

Just a thought

 

We're talking about a series sponsor Mark, it would be the (fill in the
blank) AMA Superbike Championship by ________, maybe the prob are sematics
and they should just drop, the "super" from the stock classes, though that
wouldn't really stop the confusion with the machinery. The sad fact that
Proracing hasn't been able to find a sponsor in what, 2 years? Pretty much
speaks volumes, about both the AMA's marketing and the confusion anyone
outside of MC road racing in this country has with the current structure.
DA's comments could have been considered throwaways a year and a half ago,
not today..

This is inside

"Inside baseball" pretty much said it all. You ever been to a NHRA drag
race? Trust me on this, there is absolutely no confusion between say,
SStock's and Funny Cars, none! Anyone can tell the difference whether
they're sitting still, or doing big smoky burnouts, yet both have their own
following, as well as OEM participation and they both are extremely popular,
now why is that? I'll tell you why, they differ in sound, speed,
sight(smell) and everyone can easily see it. Sure Drag racing is a hell of a
lot bigger than MC racing, but the fact it's smaller only makes the series
structure that much more self defeating. The AMA needs to get, or move past
it's club racing roots if it is ever going to break through to the big
times, though it's painfully obvious they have either the foresight, or the
people to do so..

Dude, I'm around them constantly, in fact prolly too much. Tell you what,
spend a few years on a dyno and you'll be able to also..

Never to me, though I seem to recall you once had a slightly different take
on that issue..

I have no idea what happens in WSB, nor do I desire to the way they are now,
BSB is a different deal and is prolly a better comparison, but again, I know
very little about it..

Guys like us realize a 2 sec difference on a 90 sec lap is huge and can
appreciate it, Joe Dokes doesn't and when he can't see, or hear any
difference it only makes the confusion worse..

I believe and somewhat sadly too, that engine downsizing *has* to come into
play at some point. As you proved to me, it started at Daytona and I think
it's the logical progression, if not the nature of the beast known as
racing, MC racing in particular..

Heh, I saw your buddy at 'Tona and had a similar thought, though it looked
like he dropped a few pounds..

DA likes the big bore crazy fast stuff and while I do too, I also try to be
realistic, though I admit we both share disdain, if not outright loathing
for ProRacing..

Hey, it's prime waterfront stuff and a natural setting for
racing..(airboats

Again, are there places that can handle the extra speed?

Brand as in SB, the brand AMA is supposedly trying to sell..

Not buying into the reality of how much tires, engines, 'tronics and chassis
have improved is akin to hiding your head in the sand. There's a tipping
point and I believe the current displacement's in MC racing have already, or
are very close to reaching it, diminishing returns if you will. I mean, how
much is too much, or even enough for that matter? As we know the 600's are
catching the litre's, maybe we should take a serious look at letting them
go, or not, whatever...

 

Wasn't he the guy that went down hard at 'Tona the other day?

 

T3 remembers:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Dec/061207eds.htm


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

The only agenda is to obtain some sponsorship and evidently it's not high on
ProRacing's..

Every fan starts out as a casual one Mark, the present structure is
confusing and exclusive, if not totally redundant..

I have, constructive one's too, but I guess it's hard for you to see, or
hear with your head sooo far up, well, nevermind..

On the track, which gear they're in, how fast they wind up and the tone of
the exhaust. In a dyno room it's much easier, hell, we got a kid not that
can smell the difference between a 600 and a litre and while I make no claim
to such a thing, he's uncanny at predicting HP and TQ, then again, he spends
loads of time at it too..

No veiled accusations at all, it's just the arguement I remember coming from
you. As far as the archival minutae, that's your area of expertise, I really
don't have time for it..(heh, here it comes!)

Maybe, maybe not, I make no claim of knowing their issues, though I'd be
surprised if either had the duplicity that are mandated and perpetuated in
AMA..(well, maybe WSB, but that's a Flamini deal)

That not what I said at all, in fact, what you just wrote I see as one of
the problems..

Btw, that was one suggestion, fairly specific too..

I wouldn't go that far, but I know there's a shitload of dudes that have no
business on them, but without any doubt I luv' 'um, the 'busa's and 14's
especially! (when you see the plaid, you know you're bad!)

But on a racetrack there may

Now it's your turn, you ready to own up to your AMA ass kissing jones?
(prolly not;-)

More red herrings noted! Dood, Mat will say what's best for Mat and MGP is
about prototypes, I thought we were discussing DA's article about the AMA.
Look, I see it like this, we only have a couple tracks where SB's use top
gear, at most they don't even use 5th that much . We have tire issues, not
to mention safety one's too. We have a stagnant sport attendance wise and
why is that? Please don't start with the obscure sport thing, as that just
doesn't hold much water these days in lite of sales and what's happening in
other areas, i.e. motoracing in general is on a major roll, not to mention
the extreme sports thing, of which road racing modern motorcycles has *got*
to be at the very top..

I agree that OEM's are the financial foundation of our sport, but like Mat,
they and their participation are self serving. AMA over the years has got
waay too close with every damn one of 'em in one area or another and has
been manipulated for their end, not the sports. Anytime OEM's get to
dominate a sport it either stagnates, or dies and to me no better example
are the current probs in AMA, it's not exclusive to road racing either. I
believe changes have to be made so it doesn't slip farther into a branded
event, or total obscurity, you evidently do not. Dean feels we should drop
SStock for SB's sake, as well as dumping a bunch of AMA exec's. While I
agree with the latter, I look a little farther down the road and wonder why
they don't make FX the premiere class, as it is open to a much larger OEM
base, as well as fans too. I see a place for the litre's, but as a *box
stock* deal like SSport, DOT rubber and all. Motorcycle racing evolution has
always been about better performance from lighter, smaller stuff, engine
along with chassis and electronics are the huge driving force these days. I
say embrace it, evidently you don't, so I guess it's best to agree to
disagree at this point before you get po'd and go postal. 'Sides the some
bro's just showed up, we gonna fry up some snook, throw back some brews and
watch a little foot, not fute, ball...

 

Hmm, guess not..
I critize an organisation/business that I (many others too) consider to be a
joke, a sad one too and if you can find anything they've done great please
feel free to enlighten me/us..

If you attacked anyone or

You just can't kick it, can you?

I don't

This is soo you, "AMA apologists, and there are more of these sad pukes
every day it seems..."

Again, Mat does what's best for Mat, though some of the things you do are
beyond me..

Of course it matters! I guess you want to race SB's on go-cart tracks, or
parking lots...

Yeah, stay the course. Btw, you write for Bush?

Like a Daytona pit lane speed and AMA lanyard's? But again, I'll let this
drop as it's obvious you still can't see them in a real, or clear light...

I don't know if I'm going to be around this week, so I'll take this
opportunity to wish you and all the regulars here happy holidays...

Tom