honda 90/chinese 90's

I was in a Pep Boys (united states) the other day and on display there
was a pit bike with what looked identical in my memory to the honda
90cc engine that at the time was in a honda s90. I'm unfamiliar with
who makes the chinese version but obviously it' a clone of the honda
90. Dunno if it's a record insofar as the same design has been going
on since 1965 . Any other designs that have passed from the original
maker but are still in production in a country other than it's origin?
Im guessing the bmw boxer for one. Others? Pat

 

Albrecht's given a list of some. There are loads. Yamaha's air-cooled
RD350s were built in India, badged as Rajdoots, as well. Maybe they
still are built there.

There are *loads* of 'old' designs built elsewhere.

 

Albrecht via MotorcycleKB.com wrote

Flattracker eh?

Oooooh ugh ...
http://folks.harbornet.com/flattracker/flattracker/my_motorcycles.htm
The XR750 is so good looking I can't ever believe it. Phworargh.
If I had the money ...

 

I agree that most of these chinese bikes are crap, but there a few
that are getting noticed, Jianshe for example is yamaha china, they
are the ones that make most of yamahas scooter and smaller cc engines

 

**************************************
Jim Sez:

" What happens", is that the Chinese manufacturer will purchase/obtain
a Japanese model, tear it apart, measure everything, and build a
replica. They are not purchasing the designs and intellectual
property from the Japanese manufacturer's engineering departments.

Many (but not all) of their customers have had monumental problems
with their purchases.
Then, they often substitute cheaper/less durable/heavier materials
for the ones used by Japan, and also often substitute a "cheaper to
produce" design component (that often fails) for an exact replica
component.
(examples: 560 lb 250cc 4-wheelers, anything sold at Pep Boys, and
the oil injection pump in the PW80 knock-offs that they tried to get
me to sell.)
There exist exceptions to this statement on Chinese vehicles, but one
must look hard, and the exceptions will not be the cheapest available.

The Koreans, though, seem to have figured out that they need to
build a quality product, and they will make money in the American
market.
I'm thinking "Kymco" as I type this. At a GasGas dealer show a couple
of years back, I spoke with a California motorcycle dealer that has
three shops in the Pismo Beach area. One Harley shop and a couple
more. His shop at Pismo Beach rents quads for use in the sane dunes.
He said that the Kymco quads were giving service rivaling the Honda
atvs that he also used in his rented service. (He told me that he
"rotates" about a 120 quads through his rental service during the
course of a year. (He puts an average of 10 new quads in use per
month, and remove 10 from service per month.)

The only reason I didn't sell the Kymco quads in my shop was that
the CVT belt drive assembly was air cooled, and this area of the USA
is rather swampy. The average use for a quad here would not be
compatible with their quads, because they wouldn't/couldn't "snorkel"
their venting/cooling system for the CVT.

Wasn't it Kymco that bought Cannondale? Someone please correct me
if they know better. (ATK bought Cannondale's parts, and someone else
bought their tooling and design properties.)

Just rambling.

Jim Cook/Wudsracer
2006 GasGas DE300
Team LAGNAF

 

**************************************************

************************
Jim replies to his own post:

The crack about Pep Boys (posted in the ext above) was prompted from
the number of calls for parts that I received from Pep Boys customers.
Every call bemoaned "unreliability, the lack of customer support, and
the non-existance of replacement parts".

Now, there does exist "importers of Chinese vehicles" who are on
the "up & up" and trying to do things right. (as opposed to Pep Boys)
One example is Midwest Motor Vehicles, in Madison, Wisconsin.

For a time, in my (former) shop, I sold some Chinese built vehicles
distributed by Midwest Motor Vehicles. http://www.midwestmv.com/
I sold a 50cc 2-stroke quad, a 50cc 2-stroke scooter, and a 125cc
4-stroke full sized dirt bike (the precursor to this one, 10 years
ago. http://www.midwestmv.com/dirtbikes/NWJC150_spec.html ).
All three vehicles we sold proved to be extremely reliable. The
only parts that the 125cc dirt bike purchasers ever needed were
fenders, spark plugs, chains/sprockets, and tires.

Midwest Motor Vehicles always had the parts that I needed in stock,
and always had a tech man available to help when I called. The
required dealer package included a pretty good parts assortment,
including oil pumps, starters, piston kits, cylinders, heads and
carburetors. They weren't the cheapest, but were a very good and
responsible distributor to me. ("were", since I'm not in the business
any longer. MwMV is still running strong.)

(This was just my experience. Other's may vary.)


Good Riding to You!




Wudsracer/Jim Cook
Smackover Racing
'06 Gas Gas DE300
'82 Husqvarna XC250
Team LAGNAF

 

No argument, just a question: isn't Kymco a Taiwanese company?

Also, if that's so, are they doing some of their manufacturing or other
work in Korea now?

p

 

You're right. On holiday in Italy recently, I saw swarms of Kymco
scooters buzzing around and figured that if the Italians rated them as
products, they'd be OK.

My local dealer gives them the nod as well.

 

If it's the same Pep Boys with the two goofy heads logo, their shops
swarmed into our area about six years ago, stayed a year, and then
collapsed. I guess nobody around here was interested in buying from
them. Their old shops are all Belle Tires, now.

Sergeant Tibbs

 

Many Chinese factories are using Japanese designs for their small bikes,
which they had often been manufacturing under license for years already.
They've pretty much swamped some of the European markets lately, as they're
seriously cheaper than anythign else available. That doesn't always mean
they offer better value for money however.

Possibly the oldest design still in production is that of the BMW R71 which
was copied by the Soviets and called M72. Derivatives of that copy are
still sold by Russian IMZ-Ural and I also think there's a similar (now
Ukrainian) Dnepr clone. There is also at least one Chinese factory, Chang
Jiang, producing a copy of the M72 (so a copy of the copy...).

The Royal Enfield Bullet, now manufactured in India with 350cc and 500cc
capacities and in different "versions", is allegedly quite close to the
original as well.

Geo

 

You are talking utter, utter nonsense, if you mean road bikes.

If you mean toy off-roaders, bikes for banging around fields, kids'
bikes and quads, then fair enough.

 

message

No, I mean (small) road bikes. My definition includes mainly the
125cc-or-less bikes/scooters/mopeds the Chinese manufacture in large
quantities.

"Chinese bikes account for 12 per cent of the UK road-bike market and 25 per
cent of new registrations up to 125cc"
(http://www.independent.co.uk/living/motoring/features/article1919450.ece ,
24 Oct 2006)

How is that utter nonsense?

I don't have any solid data for the Mediterranean markets where small bikes
are practically ubiquitous but I think statistics would show an even larger
portion of the market(s) going to chinese manufacturers.


Geo

 

Because 12% and 25% is not "swamping", is it? It's a significant share,
granted.

In other words, you don't know and are guessing again. To judge by my
last visit to Italy, one Far Eastern brand that is being accepted is
Kymco, which isn't Chinese, of course.

When Italians buy Korean scooters, you know they're good.

China will, absolutely will, make big inroads into European markets, but
they're going to have to set up proper dealer networks to do it.
After-sales and parts back-up is abysmal for some of the things being
brought it.

 

message

I suppose I may have been a tad too dramatic. Still, 12 and 25% (in that
particular category) within only a few years, from manufacturers with no
serious credentials, that's pretty impressive, even if we're not talking
about a single manufacturer.

I'm not guessing, I base my claims on what I've heard and what I've seen
first hand. Granted, it's not very scientific, but as far as I can tell, the
Chinese have managed within 5-6 years to command a respectable portion of
the small bike market in some countries. If you have solid data refuting
what I subjectively perceive to be the case, I'd appreciate being corrected.
At least Britain proves my point, even if "swamping" was exaggerated.

I wouldn't be too sure, in the end of the day they also buy Italian
(insert joke about Italian reliability -or lack thereof- here)
Joking aside, I get the point you're making. I don't really know how good
they are, but they are a recognisable brand with some reputation rather than
"another of those far-east imports"

No disagreement here, the things are being sold in supermarkets with no
after-sales support, or you see "importers" of various "brands" popping up
and disappearing within the same year.

Geo

 

A lot of these bikes are being regarded as "disposable". Lousy
after-sales service, poor parts back-up, iffy build quality, but if it
lasts two years, who cares?

My local dealer, in London, gives them the nod, reckoning they're
probably the best Far East brand he's seen. And they have taken the
trouble to establish a decent dealer network. Hyosung is doing the same.
Ditto Daelim.

Oh yes.