Gerry Robinson & The NHS BBC2 last 2 nights

I couldn't help but watch in disbelief at the general negativity and
fuckwittery involved.

Is Gerry Robinson being overly simplistic in his views?

 

My business partner came in yesterday ranting about this. He couldn't
believe the mentality of the people involved.

 

Cane wibbled:

If you ran your business like that you'd be bankrupt PDQ.

 

The NHS _is_ effectively insolvent.

 

Not IMO, many powerless people and many who think they have power. The CE
was a wet tosser.

Unfortunately the "Consultant" issue would appear to be the NHS's biggest
problem. When it was formed they were given too much power (or it would
never have happened) and they have used and abused it ever since.

If they did spend more time in the hospitals then they would not be able
to keep the private sector going.

The one thought I did have was that as the facilities are being shared and
that caused issues over staffing and "list", surely it would be possible
to have a dedicated team/building/business that did that one task in one
place?

So, Rotherham does only eye surgery, Sheffield does othopedics(sp?) etc
(simplistic but just some thoughts)

 

I have worked in the NHS for some 37 years and there are no surprises
in the programme. It is good to see a more ?objective? and honest
presentation though.

As much as I would like to point to the Consultants as being THE
problem they are only part of it. Yes they can be arrogant arseholes
and assume they know all the answers and if only people would do as
they are told all would be well. The other groups own their share of
the blame for the situation.

Why is it that nurses who form the greatest number of health staff are
one of the least influential groups, the continued deference to
medicine as the FOAK and the weddedness to a positivistic form of
science and knowledge will only perpetuate the situation.

Medics need to be controlled and recognised as just another group of
employed health workers, this does not decry their expertise, but
recognises its limitations. The BMA is a wonderfully powerful and adept
political machine which most other groups seem unable to effecitvely
challenge. Cast your minds back to the introduction of restrictions on
prescribing by the Thatcher govermenment and the BMA's excellent advert
of who do you trust the government or a doctor - very clever. But of
course she who must not be named did get her way, as usual. Mind you
why trust either, they are both self serving.

All of us tax payers need to remind ourselves that it is we who fund
this mess, and we should demand of not only the government, but also
ALL NHS staff, who are also tax payer, and occupational groups, that an
appropriate management structure is essential and signed up to, with
the management having not only the authority but also the guts to
address the issues.

Maybe we need management from business to come and give us all a clout.

brian

 

And can't really survive as neither fish nor fowl.. Either it needs to
be a business or it needs to be a publicly-funded service. It can't be
both simultaneously (and just putting a business gloss on top of the
old public-service mentality doesn't work).

A bit like Royal Mail - while it was publically owned nobody
particularly cared that it cost lots of money to run. As soon as it
became a 'business' then Post Offices started closing all over the
place because the profitability aspect overtook the public service
aspect.

To re-use the old comment about the Holy Roman Empire - the NHS is
neither National, nor healthy nor a service.

Phil.

 

Royal Mail, and Post Office Counters were run as to totally seperate
businesses. Back in the day, Post office counters weren't actually
allowed to turn a profit at all, so had to run at break even.

 

I found this fascinating, but the problems not entirely surprising,
though this is entirely due to 'er ladyship being an NHS manager and
nurse.

I did have some trouble hearing some bits over 'erself ranting at some
of the people Gerry Robinson was dealing with.

As Brian's mentioned above, the power of the doctors and consultants
should not be underestimated.

 

Brian wibbled:

My thoughts exactly. Not more management consultants, but someone who
can actually run a business and motivate people.

I had a cyst removed [1] yesterday and the surgeon (consultant) who did
it has some similar management issues.

For example in one of the hospitals he works in, they run several
operating theatres and have one radioligist assigned to the department.
Apparently x-rays are often needed during an operation to see what they
are dealing with and sods law dictates that maybe two or three x-rays
are needed at the same time in different theatres, often meaning a
considerable delay and assumably cost, which happens virtually on a
daily basis.

I don't know what an operating theatre costs to run, but I bet you the
cost of the three portable x-ray machines needed at £40,000 each would
probably pay for themselves within a short space of time, taking into
account all the lost overheads and revenue from decreased throughput.

His problem - try as he may, he can't get anyone to see beyond the end
of their collective noses.

[1] looked exactly like a small golf ball

 

On 10 Jan 2007 02:41:06 -0800, "Brian" <>
wrote:

If you want to move towards a US-style profit-driven private health
system then yes, sure. But somehow I don't think the political will to
disband the NHS will be forthcoming.

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Ace wrote

From Tories maybe not but it seems a central philosophical plank in the
boat that Nu Labor have constructed to sell us all down the river in.

 

Would good management from a business perspective automatically move
the NHS to a profit driven system. I would hate that, as the basic
precepts that underpin the NHS are some that I hold dear.

My thoughts were more along the lines of people being charged with both
the power and authority to bring about the required changes. Including
making it clear that staff are valued and receive positive and when
necessary negative feedback to further there activities. Within my
Trust we frequently receive notice of changes that we, as the direct
care givers have had no or little input into. This frequently seems to
be about collecting ticks to be put into boxes for stats so that monies
can be claimed. When we try to challenge this so we can either
understand it better, or to put our perception of the likely impact on
direct care to patients we are simply told that that is the way it is.
Frustration upon frustration

I think you are right there is no/little political will to disband the
NHS, thank god. However, the creeping privatisation may well lead to
the NHS simply being a commissioning body rather than a direct
provider. Too far down this road and we may well replicate the
wonderful USA which leaves a great number of its citizens with minimal
health care.

Brian

 

Unfortunately I didn't see the programme.

Maybe the country needs to decide what it wants from its health service
and define it in better terms than "everything, done perfectly and done
now"?

All the management in the world will not make up for not understanding
what the NHS is supposed to provide. I appreciate that is a hard
question to answer but someone has to do it if we are to progress beyond
the mess we are in now. Regrettably I believe hell will freeze over
long before we get any sense out of politicians, patients or health
professionals.

 

Paul Corfield wrote

It is more on the lines of "My personal needs, done perfectly and done
now"

Whose view on understanding, mine and my demands and 60 million just
like me, or the politicos who have to fund/manage all this from a
limited pot?

We did it 60 years ago when the NHS was first formed. What we haven't
done is been faithful to the cause since then.

Ain't dat a truff with nothing to do with the NHS.

 

Same here

And then you realise it's the same sort of thing happening on the home
office and all the problems that it's going through

Maybe, but you do have to wonder what happened to joined up thinking

.... and what's actually happening to all this money that NuLabia are
throwing at it

 

Ah yes. Reid is being visited by the classic civil servants' mass revenge.
Great fun to watch.

Ali

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Bear

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Wicked Uncle Nigel - Podium Placed Ducati Race Engineer as featured in
Performance Bikes and Fast Bikes

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
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Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha Vmax Honda ST1100 wiv trailer

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Bear

Hmm. Bit lacking in the subtlety department, d'you think?

--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - Podium Placed Ducati Race Engineer as featured in
Performance Bikes and Fast Bikes

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha Vmax Honda ST1100 wiv trailer

 

Lovely.

I think that was the point - and you can take that anyway you like #