expect more changes in QLD

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:49:02 +1000

Hmm... Well I have never brushed the disks unless I was in the process
of applying them, as the difference between "brake properly now" and
"start now but don't do it" has never seemed important to me.

So I can't see that as evidence of problems.

Now lack of anticipation in other ways I can see as a problem. I see
it a lot in car drivers in NSW, less so in bike riders.

I see a reasonable amount of following too close, and what's more
following too close and in the middle rather than at the edges. That
is, indeed, silly.

I am unsure of the problems with lanesplitting at speed. It looks on
the face of it bad, but then I think "OK, so what can happen, and
when?"

IN other words, what are the actual risks, rather than thinking about
gut reaction?

It seems to me that the difficulty when splitting is cars moving
laterally. Either completely from one lane to another, or moving int
he lane to make the room between too small.

Why do they move from one lane to another? To gain an advantage, or
to change lanes to turn.

If cars are in a pair of lines evenly spaced, so there's little room
to change, do they? When are these people splitting at speed?

And of course... are they actually having crashes? As far as I know,
there's no break out of lanesplitting in crash reports although there
was an attempt to call all overtaking crashes (including headons...)
as though they were lanesplitting, as part of the argument about
making it specifically illegal. So no one really does know how
dangerous it is. We do know that same direction "sideswipe" crashes
are a very small number of crashes, we don't know how that translates
into how many lanesplitters there are compared to how many crashes.
Anecdotal evidence (which isn't data but is all we have) is that
lanesplitters don't splat.

Well.. the Old Girl's 4LS front takes a bit of warning, but once the
brakes have been hard on for a very short time (not set up, that makes
no damn difference) then as you slow, you start to slow very quickly.
But you do have to have forearms like popeye!

Exactly. I think why I called you is that you appeared to give it a
lot of weight. Whereas I give it none at all.

I think you can only say that if you know where the crashes are
occurring and how, and what difference there is to other years, and
other vehicle user groups.

All we know is that a bunch have happened this year. We don't know if
they are single or multi vehicle, we don't know if they are right of
way violations, intersection, same direction, where they are happening,
speed, or really anything at all about them, including if they are the
same as other years.

Until we do know that, there's no way to know whether it is a lack of
bike handling ability in corners, lack of traffic smarts at high speed,
lack of them at low speed, lack of braking skills, taking chances, a
general problem with ability of drivers in Qld who are not coping with
the bike boom, a statistical anomaly which will correct itself next year,
or what combination of the above.

"No data yet," he answered. "It is a capital mistake to theorize
before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgement."
- A Study in Scarlet


Zebee

 

To be fair I don't think I *did* give it the weight you are attributing to
me Zebee. I mentioned that apparent lack of use of the technique (based on
my observation) as one thing (along with a number of others as posted) that
strikes me as an indicator of a lack of awareness and use of risk management
techniques in the Brisbane area. At least in relation to what I have seen
used when I was in the training game in NSW and the general standard of
riding I think exists in Sydney.

Nev jumped on the set-up one and the discussion seemed to go from
there.......

Agreed. Which is why I said 'maybe' and 'apparent'.

I don't think I've made an attempt to make a definitive link of any kind
between my observations and the current situation. In fact the original
comment was to the intent that I think the greater level of risk riders seem
to take (based on my observations) might be reflective of less than optimal
training, and that training might be compromised by being delivered by bike
shops that are more concerned with getting someone out the door on a bike
than ensuring a good training outcome..... From that we somehow wound up
here!

In any case, my opinions won't count for shit in regards to whatever knee
jerk response Anna and her mob will choose to take.

Otherwise I've got no issue with what you wrote. All very sensible and I
pretty much agree!

Chris

 

I prefer to look far enough ahead and leave enough space around me so as not
to get into situations where there is a "real possibility that you will need
to brake hard". I think the last time I had to brake hard was last year.

Theo

 

Is that all? I'll bet it's double that.
60 people dying a day would mean that if everybody lived till 70 there are
1.5 million people in Sydney.

Theo

 

Since as we know its a bit more than that, what method did you use to do
that math? Births rate a factor? I'm guessing there's a bit of background
information somewhere....

P
(genuinely interested)

 

If there are e.g. 3 million people living in Sydney and they all die on
their 70th birthday then they all live 25,550 days. To maintain that level
of population 117 people need to be born every day and 117 people will turn
70 and die every day. Simple maths really, not trying to villify anyone. Of
course it isn't quite that simple, as there is not an even distribution of
age groups, and there is no allowance for growth. If only 60 people a day
died, the growth rate would be alarming.

Theo

 

You're not going to survive forever using just luck, Theo. You better
get out and do some emergency braking practice, and throw in a bit of
preparing for emergency braking practice while you're at it.

Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX

 

I assume you're being a little fascetious Nev, but you may have misread what
I said above. I said "last time I had to brake hard", not last time I braked
hard.

Theo

 

Just thought I'd chime in here, IMHO this is a *very* bad - and
dangerous - habit to develop. For all intents and purposes, it makes
your brake lights useless, since they are no longer give any
indication of whether or not you are slowing down.

People who ride the brakes shit me to tears, because it means I have
to waste additional attention on them to look for secondary
indications of vehicle slowing (weight redistribution, vehicle getting
closer, etc) rather than rely on the bright red lights which are
ostensibly there solely for that purpose. Whenever I find someone who
is constantly illuminating their brake lights without actually slowing
down, I always get as far aware from them as possible, because they
significantly decrease my ability to ride safely.

CS

 

Aye, Aye. Shits me too. I sat behind a Honda CRV for ten kms this morning. I
think he was tapping the brake pedal with his left foot in time with some
piece of classical music.

Theo
(Not intending to villify anyone who actually listens to classical music. I
was listening to Ofra Harnoy playing Casals just yesterday)

 

Indeed. And since people die at all times of the day and in all
places, probability says some will die on the roads.. and some in the
bath, and some in bed etc etc etc. So does it all come down to
determining reasonable proportions of each and making those the
targets.

OK, a bit tangential, but interesting nonetheless.

P

 

Taking it to a more obtuse level, if 65 people die in WA every day and the
average WA person spends an hour in a car every day, why is the road toll at
1 person every two days, when in two days, 5 people should die in cars of
old age.

Theo

 

In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:42:40 +1100

Except boomer life expectancies are longer than previous generations.
THere will be more people popping off on account of more people, but
they'll be older when they do.

Zebee

 

Obviously they're all driving utes, when they should be in sedans.

Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX

 

Are you saying their existence isn't sedantry enough?

P

 

Just don't lump me in with the boomers. I'm older than that.

Theo
War baby.

 

Damn right. You call some prick a racist and all the damn racists get
upset.

Ta mate.

Theo

 

More misrepresentation eh chief. No critical analysis of what I said though.

Proof that you've nothing more of value to add perhaps? Fine with me in any
case.

 

Agreed. What you have said on observation is in line with the other
behaviours I indicated - such as buffering (moving in your lane to create
space or better lines of sight) or leaving adequate following distances.
These are all part of the mix that risk management is positioned upon.

I think my other posts have more than enough comment on setting-up of
brakes.....

Chris

 

How would having the lights come on for a few seconds occasionally in
amongst the overall time spent in traffic make your brake lights useless -
there's a bit of hyperbole here....

I'm not going to again go over what it is. Suffice to say the technique was
developed in response to an understanding of some of the reasons collisions
occur and how they can potenitally be avoided, and is aimed at physical and
mental preparation of a rider (or driver) for a quick stop where there is a
*real* likelihood that one might be needed.

It is not trained just to riders, but is also incorporated into defensive
driving courses as the priniciple is the same.

Chris you're absolutely entitiled to your opinion, but as I've already
posted I don't care if people agree or not, I don't care if people use it or
not. I nominated it as *one* marker of what is recognised as demonstrating
low risk riding and it's all a few people want to bang on about! Just
because you (and others) don't agree doesn't make it wrong or of no
value.......

*sigh* it's not riding the brakes!

Why am I even bothering with this. As I have repeatedly pointed out I
nominated this as merely *one* indicator of a lack of apparent use of the
commonly accepted low risk riding behaviours, yet every apparent expert (as
I well found out when involved in training, anyone who has ridden a bike a
few years is an expert...) chimes in on this one issue with why they reckon
it is wrong.

I was never arguing that set-up alone was the exemplar of low risk riding,
just one thing you might expect to see as part of a range of behaviours,
after you asked for my comments.

My first reference to it was when I replied to you saying "Following too
close (especially on places like Gateway, M1 etc), no concept of buffering,
lane splitting at speed, apparent poor low speed skills, no sign of setting
up brakes for hazards."

If you don't regard it as a hazard reduction skill - fine! However, as it is
taught universally in the NSW pre-L and pre-P syllabus (and as such
thousands in NSW have been exposed to it), in more advanced risk management
courses for both cars and bikes and well accepted in the industry as a
useful technique then one would hope to see it being put into practice by
people who have been exposed to it.