End of the AMA privateers?

I think the question is not why is the Suzuki package so good, it's why
are the others so hopeless.

I'm thinking purely about equipment and the famous Jordan complaint.

Not necessarily. Pirelli tyres have got better since they got the WSB
franchise. The problem is where there's one tyre for the leading team
and one tyre for everyone else. It might be possible to allow multiple
factories but require that each factory supply the same tyres to all
their teams.

Actually I don't agree. I don't see a problem with factory supported
teams in SB, SS, Superstock, 600s. If the classes are promoted as a
package with SB being the clear headline class, then the factories will
want to be there. But if, say, Honda choose to run a factory team in SB,
600, Superstock, then why not. Just don't put Duhamel on all of them.
And if race day is a good show with multiple races closely following
each other, one rider on of them will just not be possible.

If subsidies are necessary, I'm not sure spreading prize money all down
the field is the way to do it. It would be better if the organisers
involve themselves in bringing sponsorship into the sport. Or by
spreading their own sponsorship to deserving teams.

Waving Yellow and Red are different. Like it or not there are too many
times when a Red Flag is needed for everyone's safety. A Pace car can be
an alternative to most of those and it has the advantage that the race
doesn't need to stop, riders don't need to re-grid, points don't change,
and most importantly the schedule doesn't change and TV windows don't
get screwed. It gives the organisers another option when the problem is
an ambulance on track, or a rider/bike lying on the racing line being
attended. But it shouldn't be used to artificially affect the race
outcome.

 

I think the question is not why is the Suzuki package so good, it's why

Well, we have one data point of comparison that, in theory, helps wash
out a lot of factors.

Aaron Yates was Yosh Suzuki in '06 and Jordan in '07. He got 484 points
in '06 and 468 pts in '07. He certainly did better in '06, and finished
identically in both championships -- 4th, both behind a Honda (Miguel in
'06 and Zemke in '07)

He did not place as well in '07, which counts for the 16 pt discrepancy,
but he didn't place as consistently either. He had some bad races.

So, in the big picture, Yates performance didn't change much at all
(save working in to the new bike and team), while Jordan went from an
11th place team (I think it was Jake Holden and Steve Rapp in '06), to a
4th place team.

We have the same rider on the "same bike" with, effectively, the "same"
performance.

I'll let Mark run the moving averages and standard deviations of the lap
times if he's so inclined .

Tommy Hayden had a crappy year last year on the Suzuki because Tommy
Hayden had a crappy year, both physically and learning the new bike. But
boy he came out strong at Daytona.

I suspect that Tommy will have a better year on the Suzuki than he did
on the Kawasaki.

I bet if Jordan bought Mladins contract instead of Yates contract, they
would have done better, and perhaps even won, last years championship.

However, that said, I don't think the Honda could have bought Mladin and
won the championship. I bet if he was at Kawasaki, they wouldn't have
won last year, but they'd have a solid shot this year after a year of
developing the bike. I think Mladin can develop a bike.

That could work, a Dunlop spec, a Pirelli spec, universal availability.
Doesn't help for the tire factories (who can give a new batch of a few
tires to a specific team rather than the whole paddock). But, like I
said, I don't think (I don't know however) that the top Dunlop teams
aren't running the same rubber. They they're getting exactly what they
want from Dunlop. I don't even recall Jordan complaining about tires.

The problem isn't with the factories in the support teams, its in the
factories not being in ALL of the support teams. But I don't blame the
factories for this. Honda jumped to FX because they couldn't do as well
as in SSport. As a fan, we had a good couple of years with Miguel and
Jake up front, plus, IMHO, the finest single race I've ever seen in any
series at the final. Then, Yamaha jumped in and gave them a run for
their money. A real solid run. Last year wasn't that great because the
one factory there had 2 riders that were of different mettle, so Josh
walked away with it. This year will be a little different simply because
of the deficit Josh has with his Daytona DQ, so we'll see how the season
turns out and whether Attack can pick of the pace and keep him honest
this year. Zemke will certainly be there. Hayes vs Zemke much different
than Hayes vs Gobert.

No, the racing wasn't as tight behind the leaders, and yes, the leaders
were a cut above the rest of the pack. But if they weren't there, the
racing STILL wouldn't have been tight in the back, as those are the same
riders.

This year, no factories are in SStock, and Jordan is posed to
"dominate". How is this different?

The assertion is that a pace car shortens the race vs a red. I guess
that's true because the race "continues" while they clean up the track.
That's certainly better for TV times, but it's a lousy race since clean
up seems to take some time, typically, and I think motorcycle cleanup
has a higher "burden" of cleanliness than car cleanup. Then again, they
tend to not make as big of messes as cars. And if it takes too long
they're likely to just call the race if it's past half way.

Frankly, I would rather have red flags and restarts than stick with a
time window. I'm so used to tape delay racing, "live broadcast" simply
shouldn't be a dominating factor in the running of the race. Daytona is
different due to its length (so there's room for a pace car in the
actual race period), plus there's pit stops already in place for the
bikes. Sprint races are different. Even the best teams are surprised
when their rider shows up unannounced in the pits. Well, save for
Mladins when he was pitting on several races for tires.

I think pace cars are a necessity in NASCAR, and perhaps Indy as well.
I've seen a "no yellow" NASCAR race, and it was a parade. Leader got in
front, stayed in front, won the race. Each pit was a chance at failure,
but so is each corner. His team did well and he won the race handily.
Spectacularly uninteresting.

NASCAR encourages yellows because they know the fans want cars
screeching across the field and they also want close racing. That's a
reality of the series, and it's in the attitudes of the drivers. Reduce
the crashes, reduce the yellows, and you'll have boring races and empty
stands. Not saying NASCAR wants crashes, they certainly don't want
anyone hurt, but I don't think they're doing everything they could to
prevent them. Kind of like fighting in Hockey...

Obviously, this approach won't work in road racing. Nothing I like
better than seeing disappointed fans leaving an accident free race.

So, anyway, bottom line, it takes a combination to win, but unlike car
racing, the rider has a bigger part to play in road racing, and the
riders is the real piece of "unobtainium".

 

It is not a spec tire in the normal sense of the word then. A spec
tire means everyone runs a tire made to the same spec. In theory the
manufacture can give a better price that way in part because they
don't have to invest so much in R&D to stay ahead of the competition.
They can also make the tires more durable using harder compounds
because they don't have to worry about making their tire faster than
their competitors. I would like to see what you are suggesting
implemented, but it would not be a spec tire.

Since we are speculating what DMG will do I think looking at how
Nascar got to where they are at is a factor. When Nascar started the
cars were supposed to be "stock" cars. That meant everything on it
had to have a factory part number. The part may have been a dealer
installed option, but it had to be listed in the books and be
available to anyone that wanted to buy one.

That is how things were until about 1964 when the Chrysler Hemi
suddenly dominated the races. In order to get some semblence of
competition back Nascar limited the Hemi to one four barrel carb even
though it came with dual quads. And they allowed Ford to run two
fours, even though only a single four could be had stock. From that
point on Nascar would decide what flavor of "stock" would be allowed
in order to keep things competative. BTW, GM had quit racing in 1957
along with the other factories and had not yet gotten back in.

To take some of the burden off the factories they were allowed to
assign factory part numbers to some aftermarket products.

The bone stock inline fours are not all that far apart performance
wise. IMO they should be kept close to stock. The SS class is not
all that far behind as far as engine performance, so why not keep the
costs down. Having each factory come up with a kit that falls within
certan guidelines and limiting modifications to the parts listed would
be reasonable. The factory team may not like the idea of everyone on
the same make of bike being given access to "their" parts, but the
manufacturer should be happy to see more competitors on their make.

It may be fighting the last war but I think it needs to be made
official so there is no chance of backsliding. The support classes
are needed to groom new talent that will eventually move up to SB.
That was the intent of the Busch series when it started. Winston Cup
drivers were not allowed to make points in that series so as not to
take the spot light away from the drivers that were trying to get
recognized so they could gain sponsorship. The few Cup drivers that
did enter did so to help draw more fans to that race. Then someone
figured out that they would have a better idea how to set up their Cup
car if they ran in the Busch race. I stopped following Nascar at all
about that time. IMO it currently ranks right up there with the WWF.

Right now the biggest race of the series is awarded points as one race
even though it is three times as long as a normal race. Not all the
SB races have been double headers. Those that are not have been
relegated to a lower status. The two race weekends contribute to the
"haves vs the have nots" struggles. If a factory rider wads up his
bike he just uses his backup bike. For mear mortals there likely is
no backup bike so they are SOL.

If two races are better than one, and they can certainly run two races
in a day, why not run two or three SB races on Saturday and two or
three more on Sunday?

It's not so much that the fans don't know which race is which but that
earlier in the day you have practice and qualifying for the different
classes. If things get at all off time wise due to cleaning up a
crash or whatever it is difficult for the fans to know who is out
there.

I wasn't a big fan of the twins but at least they were something
different. I think their biggest problem was that one team would get
way out in front and it ended up a parade. Might be able to get
around that by specifying an easily obtained max hp for the class.
That would be no good for SB where the factories want to claim victory
based on the higher performance of the bike, but in a support class
not open to factories it could work. Another possibility would be a
class based on the naked "street fighter" bikes that seem to be
popular. What made SB so popular when it came out in the 70's was
that the bikes were similar to what a large percentage of the fans
rode on the street. Yes, many fans today ride sport bikes, but there
are also many that ride other kinds of bikes.

 

With just one provider of the tires they can make changes, or not, so
long as they give everyone the same tires. With multiple providers
that doesn't work because you get right back to one team having an
advantage over others due to their provider improving their tires.

That last part will be the big problem. We have plenty of club racers
that come in from one race, swap bikes on pit lane, and go out on the
warm up lap of their next race with no break in between. If the
current pros can make it through a 200 mile race then two or three of
60 mile races with trophy presentations in between should be no
problem. The only way to keep that from happening is if you
specificly have a rule against it. And if the purpose of the support
classes is in part to groom the next group of SB stars then you can't
let the current SB stars take all the top spots.

There is no question the organisers should be trying to get more
sponsors involved, but the teams need to be able to survive in the
mean time. As for the deserving teams bit, how does a team go about
becoming "deserving"?

Yes, a Waving Yellow and a Red Flag are very different. But there is
very little difference between a Red Flag and a Pace car. In both
cases the racing has stopped. Say what you like but the racing has
stopped and the field closes up for a restart. Because it doesn't
appear to be as disruptive to a race, or affect the time as much, the
use of the pace car will quickly become comonplace. And while it
might not innitially be used to bunch the field up whenever it gets
too spread out, that option will exist and will undoubtably be used.
If you doubt that you obviously haven't watched much Nascar racing. I
have seen a yellow come out because there was a lug nut on the track
off line on the back straight. They of course had to send a truck out
to get rid of it for safety's sake. But when somebody brushed the
wall on the restart there was no need to stop again. Gotta keep
things moving don't cha know

Bruce

 

What I meant about SS not being far behind was that they are making
close to the hp of the SB class. And it looks like the factories are
pretty close to equal power wise in the SS class. So that wouldn't be
a bad place to go for SB. Particularly if SS goes away so nobody can
say, "What's so super about them, they're no faster than stock." That
would mean the factories wouldn't have to do anything more than what
they are already doing. And the privateers would suddenly have bikes
that are built to the specs of the class! As it stands now if they
can only afford one bike it has to be built to the specs of the more
restrictive class. Under the new rules, with SS gone, they can build
to the SB rules, which will be close to what they already had.

Limiting the "haves" does the same thing without subsidizing. And
it's not like the SB class would suddenly look slow. Without anything
to make a direct comparison with they would still look plenty fast.
And they would be fast for that matter. How to the SS times of today
compare with the SB times of say three years ago?

Sounds good to me.

No, that makes them equally as SOL, no points either way. Those that
have a backup bike are less SOL with two races because they have a
chace to salvage points the next day.

I know it's stupid but it follows the same logic of "I get more SB
races for my money."

I agree, but some tracks are having hard times with complaints about
noise already.

Or how's about a Two up on full dress touring bikes class?

 

I see they are going to have a supermoto as part of the Laguna Seca SB
final.

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=31810

Be interesting to see how the pros ike having dirt on the track.