Do they think we're morons?

Phil Launchbury wrote:

Okay, let's assume I accept that The control of society is in the hands
of God.
Who made it a democracy, then?
Assuming God did, why, oh why, would he exclude his own followers from it?

I haven't heard that you have renounced your British citizenship.

I ask again: have you done this?

If not, why not, or do you just want to talk about being of the kingdom
of God and not of men, but are, infact, unwilling to take any real
action in that direction which might actually cost you something?

--
John

SV650
Black it is
and naked

 

That is, of course, your own interpretation, and is, I think, rather
tenuous at best.

As I've said elswhere: if God controls gov't, then he gave us a
democracy and a right to vote: it's the system he estabished. Why
then, would he deny you a place in it?

I'v told you below:

So you agree thay have nothing to do with voting and that you have,
indeed, misinterpreted them?

--
John

SV650
Black it is
and naked

 

There is also the concept that if one doesn't use one's vote, one has no
grounds to complain.
--

Cheers!
Fr Jack
96 Tiger.
FRJACKUKRM AT GMAIL DOT COM
skype: fr.jack (without the dot)

 

I always vote or I get a guilty conscience (Emily Pankhurst, Annie Kenney
and Emily Wilding Davison etc.)

Too true.

 

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the

Too right. I work on the 'use it or lose it' principle; if enough
people stop voting, democracy will cease to be a method of government
and the door will eventually be kicked shut by powergrabbing groups who
will turn the clock back a couple of hundred years.

I also get fucking annoyed at the whinging, spineless, ungrateful cunts
who can't be bothered to get up off their arses and make a mark on a
ballot paper every few years.

FFS, people died for the right to do that.

 

I suspect that it was rather low on their personal motivation list,
but broadly speaking, yes.

 

Oh, it won't stop me turning up and registering my non vote. I have
always done so when I've been in the country. I am not apathetic, I've
just run out of choices

 

That is such a fucked up argument

 

That's the beauty of the bible, find the right bit and it will say
almost whatever you want it to

 

So it's not really relevant for this world of ours

 

Because politicians DO notice a diminishing (or increasing) majority
in a safe seat.

It's always worth voting.

 

In which case it boils down to man is infallible, therefore we get
things wrong, therefore you and/or I could by definition be right or
wrong.

By the way, is it voting in the civil election process or voting in any
circumstances that you have issues with? Only asking because the
replacement for Judas Iscariot was chosen by casting lots.

 

"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man" from 1st letter of St
Peter chapter 2.

 

I am not sure that is does, but there have been so many posts I may have
missed something. The other problem is the emphasis given by translators
where there are inexact relationships between the original text and
current English usage. Having a friend who studied ancient Greek at
Oxford I can be comfortable that you choose your translations with an
open mind.

Or that an early nomadic people became settled farmers, but where they
chose to farm someone else came along saying "oi, get orf moi land".
Repeat until they bump into a large military power looking for cheap
labour.

Sorry, but you have interpreted it as "let others do the dirty work for
me". I chose to use the gifts to hopefully examine the candidates and
make a balanced choice. Thereby making the country what it is for all
including you. I of course reserve the right, in retrospect, to have
chosen a stinker of a government or by turn the most enlightened
government since the unification of the United Kingdom.

 

That had me rather worried too.

 

The difference is that deciding which pub to go to does not involve any
law-making apparatus.

I guess the difference is the legal aspect - appointed decision-makers
have the responsibility to make laws (either at a local or national
level) whereas a small group of friends don't.

I disagree. We don't have the right to make any of the decisions about
the various functions of government (laws, taxes and the like).

The people that are elected do - which in my view makes them the
Government[1].

Phil.

[1] And lets not forget the UK is not a pure democracy - it's a
Parliamentary Representative democracy. And there is a big difference
between the two.

 

Logic says the answer is easy - since God determines who and what is in
government it is he who decides what form the government is.

Becuase he has already said that we are not to be part of the apparatus
of human government. Why? Becuase you can't serve two masters - either
you serve God or you serve politics - and in most cases the two are
mutually exclusive.

Because there is no such thing as British Citizenship (and also there
is no such legal entity as Gods Kingdom yet). And even if there were we
can go by the precedent that was laid down for Roman Citizens in the
first century which was "do not seek to change the legal state that you
were in when you became a believer" (the argument was also applied to
slaves - if their owner decided to release them then all good and
well).

The apostle Paul (for example) was born a Roman Citizen and was not
required to renounce it (or the duties that it entailed in terms of
paying taxes and the like). In fact on a number of occasions he used
that status in order to help the local churches that he was
establishing.

Because I'm not required to.

Phil

 

I think that ought to be "fallible"..

And within our church we do indeed elect our church officers. But that
is within a church context, not a civil one.

And as you point out - in doing so we conform to Biblical precedent.

Phil

 

Indeed - unless they conflict with Gods requirements. Which is why in
WW1 my grandfather was imprisioned because of contientious objection.
And why people in my church in countries where Christianity is illegal
continue to practise in secret.

Phil

 

Why? Because you think it is wrong? Because you have moral objection?

Phil