DMG Caves -- new rules announced.

http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jul/080719a.htm

Here are my two favorite lines in the posting:

"The program we are releasing today represents the best combination of
our vision and the vision shared with us by the manufacturers,
promoters, fans, and independent teams"

and

"Works bikes, salaried star riders, rules written by and requested by
the manufacturers, special tires, no-holds barred superbike racing by
the strongest teams in America.....what more could a racing fan ask for?"

The first line is notable because it seemed pretty clear that DMGs
vision and the "manufacturers, promoters, fans and independent teams"
vision were different. Perhaps less so the independent teams, but
certainly the factories and fans.

The second line is notable because he's crowing about the exact thing he
didn't want. Everything in that statement is against the vision he's
been promoting.

The 3 classes, Factory, American and Daytona Superbike are also interesting.

Factory is going to run on the 2 year rule set the factories had already
worked on. American sounds like SuperStock with a spec tire, basically.
And Daytona is DMGs petri dish and proving ground with rules we've heard
about before.

The notable thing is that they're allowing the Pro license riders in all
of the classes. That means that the factories get to dominate all three
again, just like today, if they want. Perhaps by restricting testing and
the homolgation requirements, the factories will have less of an edge.
But even then, if the factories decide to play, you know they're going
to be on top.

Also, I'm betting we're still going to have 2 DSB races each weekend.
I'm guessing the schedule will be Moto-ST and DSB on Saturday, and Red
Bull, American, Daytona and Factory on Sunday.

If you think about it, this is the smartest thing the DMG could have
done, and you have to wonder why it's taken all the teeth gnashing and
screaming to get here.

If you have a better vision for the sport, then promote that vision.
Here he has DSB as his example, and his vision. And it gets to perform
head to head with the Factory Unobtainium series. Now, the fans and
teams will be able to compare head to head, and let that input determine
the future of the series.

I think that this is the best news I've heard all year, but it most
certainly is more than just a "compromise" for DMG.

If he wanted to stick it to the Factories and their influence over the
series, he lost the first battle. There's still no say on how the series
will be promoted, and, to be fair, the fact that it's "Factory
SuperBike" is a conscious decision to tell the fans that they're
watching the Factories race here, and that it's there show, which can
cut both ways.

It could well be promoted as the AMA Daytona Super Bike Series, and the
DSB teams will have the most track time (outside of ST, natch) and, most
notably, TV time.

This will be important if DMG gets the races on ESPN instead of Speed,
as it has a wider reach. So, the factories may well have less TV exposure.

So, overall, I think that this is a good thing. It a perfect transition
plan to keep the series going, give DMG a chance to develop their new
idea, and yet let the fans and factories maintain with what they had.

I think I would have rather seen a SuperSport clone than a SuperStock
clone, but perhaps that's what DSB will inevitably turn in to.

All that said, I MIGHT go to Fontana next year. I might go both days
just to check it out, but I doubt I'll be traveling to Sonoma like I
have past couple of year. It's still, to me, a 1 day event, and that's a
long trip for a single day event. But who knows, we can always watch the
Motocross on Saturday in Sonoma.

Regards,

Will Hartung

 

Too many Superbikes classes, 2 too many. Wanna' bet on which one dies first?

 

I agree, to a point, but is X SuperBike, Y SuperBike and Z SuperBike
really any worse than SuperX, SuperY, and SuperZ?

Kind of same thing only different. The earlier one is harder to say, tho.

Regards,

Will Hartung

 

One of the hits on the old regime was too many "supers" in the program
(bike, stock and sport) and how that was confusing to some folks who
weren't that familiar with bike racing, (new blood) IMO this is only
makes it worse, substantially so too. My 1st take? I dunno for sure,
but I wouldn't get real cozy with Factory, or for that matter, possibly
American (at some point down the line) too..
For the sake of conversation think about who'll be in Factory next
year, that is, *IF* all the factory teams return.
Yosh-2 riders, 3 if Ben doesn't leave and he most likely will.
Honda-2.
Kaw-2
Yam-2(maybe?)
Duc-IF and it's a fairly good-sized if at the moment, 2 at most..
BMW-no word, but I'd be very surprised if they bother..
Buell-Doubtful at best, at least in SB, err, FSB..
Who else?
Jordan? I would NOT count on it..

Oh yeah, this too..(for what it's worth)
.... Edmondson said in a press release issued with the new rules. ÒIt
will be a shooting war among the big guns and the meek need not apply.Ó

I take that as a for sure no grid filling American Super's in Factory.
So, tell me, is a 2 row grid gonna' hold your attention and if so, for
how long?
Anyway you add those numbers it comes up a pretty slim and *$UPER*
expensive grid..

Consider this for a minute, what if Yam backs away from FSB and instead
throws their weight behind some ASB, or DSB teams and Duc says it
didn't have enough time and maybe does the same, that could easily
leave a 6 rider field. Tell me honestly, how long do you think that'll
fly?

American will more than likely be loaded, as I'd imagine Daytona will
be and if nothing's changed on that front, and I have no reason to
believe it has, that's where a bunch of $'s as well as the majority of
TV exposure will be too..

So, a cave-in? At first glance it might appear as such, but I think
it's more a reality check and in this particular case, one that
reflects our current economic climate more than anything else...

 

Oh, no, I have no confidence this being some long term plan. They needed
something to get going next year, and this is what they had to do. Like
I said, I don't think they're vision has changed.

Teams will avoid FSB only if they think that they exposure they'll get
in DSB is better. I can see Jordan going full bore in to DSB simply
because he may feel that he can compete there AND because there will be
twice the TV coverage. Jordan could race FX, but they don't, and I don't
see a dramatic difference between DSB and FX save that FX was an "also
ran" with SStock on Speed's broadcast sharing a 1hr show. DSB will
(likely) at least get 2hrs of TV. So, that's where the bikes will be seen.

Otherwise, I think that Jordan could have easily fielded a competitive
bike in FX now. But they don't.

The biggest change to FSB is one race each weekend instead of two. I
mean, I don't know why that back half of the grid is there save for
either track time, or they just like racing big snarly bikes. Those
riders could be in of the other classes, but they picked SB. So, at
least some of them will be back.

I can certainly see the potential for it being an (even) smaller grid,
but I don't see it (through my technically ignorant glasses) being any
more expensive than it is now.

It could, but I don't think it will. I just don't think the "attraction"
of DSB and ASB is that high vs running with the big boys, even if behind
them.

But, again, it could solely be sponsorship and TV time, though it's
tough to argue they've been getting a lot of value in the past.

SOMETHING has been keeping those bikes in SB, so it's more a question of
what's going to attract them out.

Oh, certainly. FX and SStock are both full now, no reason for them not
to be next year.

Well, I don't know if I agree that if we were in a economic boom that
DMG would have told the factories to pound sand, and that they conceded
solely to get viewers to the track. Arguably, FSB fans aren't what they
want there, simply because that's not what they want for the series.
There only real hope is that the FSB folks will come out and watch the
rest of the package, which hopefully have some "stars" in them, and like
what they see so when they try to kick the factories to the door again,
the fans won't be so unwieldly.

I mean, seriously, I'm a big fan and frankly couldn't have expected, all
things considered, a better outcome yet I'm still hesitant to participate.

Regards,

Will Hartung

 

"Plans call for full implementation of FIM World Superbike rules by
2011, but to ease the transition from current equipment, in 2009 Factory
Superbikes will be prepared to the specifications agreed to in 2007 by
the AMA Rules Committee and manufacturers."

How different from WSB are those rules? And do they allow for a Ducati
1098 or KTM RC8? Is there a URL somewhere with what was agreed for 2009?
Or does that 2007 mean the set of rules being used this year?

American Superbike doesn't read to me like Superstock with spec tyres
with the talk of homologated after market parts. It sounds more like
some intermediate formula. Depending on the tyre supplier, it feels like
it won't be far off factory Superbike. I guess that mainly depends on
the extent of engine mods allowed.

Superpole for ASB and DSB but not for FSB? FSB is the last race when
some fans are rushing for a plane. So which is the headline act?

So it looks to me like they have the same problem of two top races with
some of the same riders and teams competing and confusion over which is
which and which is the headline. Compared with this year, all that's
really happened is that FX and 600 supersports have been merged into
something that is both dumbed down and controlled and allows a wider mix
of machinery. Really yet another iteration of FX in it's path from a
complete formula libre to constructed, artificial competitiveness.

Seems like DSM's position is still moving and the compromises and
negotiation are still happening. I reckon there's another iteration in
this yet.

 

A temporary accommodation whose devilish details have (still) yet to be
revealed...

 

No - http://www.amaproracing.com/rulebook/2009 AMA SB Proposed rules.pdf

I think when they're talking about homologated parts they're alluding
to the "no unbtainium" stance - they're probably talking about pipes,
shocks, brake pads, etc. that are on that "approved equipment list".

Yeah, it's still a mess - they have gone from no literbikes to two
literbike classes, the same old "confusion" between classes (and more,
now thet they're all SB), and no real entry-level class or a class
which won't see any factory involvement. My guess is that this
structure is intentional, they are perhaps hoping for Suzuki, Honda
and Kawi doing FSB but very few private teams, the private teams in
ASB and also Yamaha, Ducati sitting it out and supporting DSB instead.
They don't have a middleweight SS/ASB class because they don't want
anything to bleed off participation from their DSB class, and the keep
their MOTO-ST abomination as the only route in for new riders. And you
know DSB with it's two-race format (assumedly) will be treated as the
feature by the series, no matter what BS they put out there about FSB.

Well, there's no real detail here. But there sure was a lot of chatter
going down at Laguna, guys like Kawi's Mike Preston and Suzuki's Mel
Harris, and from what little I overheard it wasn't happy talk (Preston
walked by me yesterday at one point and I heard him utter some
sarcastic thing about "entertainment"). So I don't get the impression
that this was the result of any meaningful negotiation, it was
probably just some level of factory feedback, in part through
intermediaries, and yet another surprise announcement from DMG. I
think what DMG is still doing is trying to keep the factories
grudgingly in the game and not letting them just pull out and start
planning for their own series, plus trying to calm everyone down a bit
about what a disaster this whole thing has become. But at the end of
the day their core plans have not moved one inch. So now we wait
another 6-8 weeks for an actual rule book, which based on their track
record will really come out around Thanksgiving, and of course more
piecemeal announcements and rumors.

Astoundingly arrogant and incompetent right to the end...

 

It looks as though BSB will run to FIM SBK rules next year. The irony is
that restricting things like conrods to factory spec had the opposite
effect to that intended. The teams were pushing revs to the point where
they had to change them more often to make sure the motor survives. The
factory teams are mostly happy about this because it levels the playing
field and lets them reduce their engine rebuild frequency. The
privateers are mostly unhappy because they were being more conservative
but the fewer engine rebuilds they were doing are going to cost more.

So is there a possibility that WSB, BSB and FSB will all run to the same
rules and run on the same spec Pirelli tyres?

 

No.

 

SB today, some generally fast guys on SSt machines doubling their track
time and prize money and exposure (that group expanded some at Laguna
by guys like Holden and Young because there was no SSt race), and
generally older and perhaps slower guys who just want to race in SB
(Jenson, Mizdal, Page).

Your premise, if that's what the above is, is in error, only factory's
race against factory's, the rest are little more than moving pylons and
pretty much always have been too..


Ê>Given that ASB bikes can't be run in FSB, who will show? Yamaha's
McCarty said, "When you really stop to think about it and the potential
number of bikes on the grid, it doesn't look so good. It's not really a
race, it's an exhibition.

Curious he just now sees that as something new..


Ê>I don't think that's what we wanted to happen. And that could have
been prevented by not having a second 1000 class".Ê

Yeah, the one only the factory's can afford. Wow!

guy saying this, the guy who was pushing for dumbed-down 1000s earlier.

Ê > I can certainly see the potential for it being an (even) smaller grid,
but I don't see it (through my technically ignorant glasses) being any
more expensive than it is now.

an exhibition? I tend to think not.

So, you're saying that to make it "worthwhile" the Nips' need grid
fillers? OH puhleeze tell me that's not what you're saying...

running with the big boys, even if behind them.

dependent on the factories and running in SSp or FX now will almost all
end up in DSB, and then you can add in new teams that want to run bikes
with no place in the AMA now, the add-on non-middleweight stuff thrown
in by DMG under their formula. Some guys who see running 1000s now as
worthwhile because they can run in both SSt and SB will have second
thoughts because of the no crossover rule. Ultimately having two
literbike classes is about isolating them and making them unattractive
and driving people into DSB. I mean, what IS DMG's rationale for ASB?

To separate factory racing from non-factory racing? Sorry if it hurts
their FSB grid, but they should have never been there in the first
place!!


I mean, seriously, I'm a big fan and frankly couldn't have expected,
all things considered, a better outcome yet I'm still hesitant to
participate.

I don't think it looks that good, and that's because it's still not a
complete picture and the battle will now move toward the value of FSB
and DSB to the factories. Honda's Blank said, "I'm assuming that the
FSB class is unequivocally the premier class, and I'm assuming that
it's the class that will be showcased in the spotlight and TV-heavy,
etc." Of course that can't be assumed. And all the factories come down
on DSB, saying it has little value to them, it looks like club racing,
and they don't know that DMG even wants them there. So do they support
teams in that class? I tend to doubt it.

I "tend to doubt" there's much beyond DSB in Proracing's long term
plans, but given how freaky things have gotten so far, who F'ing
knows?..

So now we see if the Japanese factories can get ASB and FSB combined
(meaning ASB dropped), or if they decide it's not worth it and they
pull out (meaning the end of FSB). And I very much doubt that trying to
get DMG to change the DSB concept will bear any fruit, I think that's
where DMG draws a hard line.

There most definitely was some posturing going on before, but I don't
believe DMG's going to be very receptive to any significant change at
this stage of the game and why should they? After all, the Jap's got
what they wanted, didn't they? What now, they need grid filler too?
(Maybe fuk'n not!!)

Bottom line for our "most honorable" friends, whaddaya gonna do, fish,
or cut bait?..

And Ducati sound more positive, which is no surprise. Of course they
haven't really committed to running anything on a full, official basis
either. But it's expected that they'd like DSB and their 848 chances,
and they'd like ASB, where their 1098S can run, although Lock doesn't
sound thrilled with the BSB-like FSB rules.

Hey, 2 outta' 3 ain't bad, especially for Duc, but who's next? Aprilia,
KTM, BMW and H-D, one can only hope...

 

Really? I thought part of the plan was that FSB would go to FIM rules in
2010. And there's repeated calls for spec tyres at least somewhere in
the DMG series and you have to think that Pirelli would bid.

 

Of course it is..

Actually Mark, that's prolly more like what's FSB is gonna end up
looking like, because if DMG really wants DSB to be the big deal, it
will be, though if something else gets popular I'd expect them to push
that too, after all, isn't that what they're supposed to do?

What is, or was SB racing here, other than an exhibition?

As much as I like seeing the big boy's I realize that it's never going
to be much more than it is right now and if M/C racing is going
mainstream, or more popular, that must change..

Sure coulda' fooled me..

Mark, does it really matter when the race is? I mean if FSB is the
"biggest and baddest" won't it rise to the top on it's own merit? Why
would they need a bunch of ASB riders to fill out a grid? To make the
OEM's look even better, if so, better than what?

I thought FSB was going to be unlimited testing, open tires and fuel,
OEM riders already get paid very well and have incentive clauses in
their contract's, now they need the purse money too? As far as TV goes,
if it turns out good I'd imagine they'll show it, don't you think? On
the other hand, if it's not I kinda' doubt they will..

SStock, or ASB has absolutely no business on the track during a FSB
race, period!

Heheh, supplying certain OEM's enough rope to hang themselves?

I still haven't seen a rule book, have you? Until I do, how in the hell
can I make an informed decision one way, or the other?

Why would you say that? It looks to me they've given the OEM's exactly
what they wanted, that is, a true cutting edge type, or latest and
greatest factory racing series..

So, now we're back to "development" again? News flash for Mark, bike
development doesn't happen at races..

Oh well. Heh, they ought to be happy with what they got and If I were
them, I wouldn't be expecting much more at all..

Umm, we're talking about 2 different classes, one's a sorta' run what
you brung thing for the big boy's and the other is essentially box
stock, why would anyone want for them to run together? The noise
factor, or somethin'?

I do and I do because I know better, btw, you should too..

What losers? Aren't they all gonna' be factory guys? Last time I
checked I didn't see any losers riding for OEM's..

I have absolutely no idea of what you speak and maybe you shouldn't
project so much, or whatever it is you're doing. That aside, I do feel
that DMG has shown more flexibility than I really expected and those
OEM's need to proclaim their intentions, one way, or the other. Fish,
or cut bait, sh*t, or get off the pot, it's all petty much the same
thing and has absolutely nothing to do with race..

I really don't know if you are, or not, just like I don't know if folks
at DMG are, or not. Do I believe you are? However misguided you might
be, no, I do not. Do I think they are? I really don't know, or for that
matter, care, but I haven't seen, or heard ANYTHING (besides your
venom) that would make me think so..

I'd like to see as much participation from as many sources as possible
and it looks like DMG wants that as well, what's not to like?

 

I think that's their premise, that there isn't, or wasn't much
popularity, at least not enough for growth to foot the bill...(theirs
BTW)

What do you call it when 2 riders are 45 seconds ahead of everyone
else? I dunno 'bout you, but to me exhibition sounds about right and
IMO, throwing a few ASB guys in there only makes it more so..

(one more time) As long as NO ONE but OEM teams have any chance at all
of winning it will remain small. Mark, this isn't rocket science, it's
more like, well, common sense..

And IIRC FSB will be the finale' of the weekend, to me that makes it
the "crowd pleaser" or focus. So what's got your panty's in a wad? Tell
you what, check out a NHRA National sometime, the Nitro finals are
always the last races, KafuckinBOOM and it's head for the hills time,
what's the difference?

If they put their money behind it, it will be, get my drift now?

Again, if this is going to be the biggest and baddest why would anyone
want stock bikes on the grid, however, if they feel more riders are
needed maybe they should hire some. I'm fairly sure there might be some
guys available..

Oh really? Of course it's to make them look omnipotent, jeeze.. The
very name says it all, Factory Superbike..

Jackass? Damn, I was goin' for asshole. In any event, don't blame me
it's genetic..

The incentive's are wherever DMG places them, remember, they own it..

By being better, faster and more competitive, you know, kickass, state
of the art stuff going hell bent for leather. Yeah, that's the ticket!!

TBH I haven't altered my thinking much on this matter. I didn't think
they needed two litre classes then and damn sure don't now, especially
so given they named them all superbikes. Secondly, why would anyone
want a stock litre competing against a trik'd out factory SB? Thirdly,
if there is/has to be a litre class why not make it something
affordable, obtainable and inclusive? Heheh, better yet, and this is
very relevant to this "discussion", ask yourself why certain OEM's are
so dead set against competing in such a series?..

Well, if the noose fits...

How many times has this deal changed already? 3, 4? I'll wait for a
rule book, thank you very much..

Wow, I luv this guy, smart dude too, bet he's hung, handsome and rich
as well!(then again, maybe F'ing not%-()

You make them out to be the Salvation Army, or somethin'. News Flash,
they invested in US racing to sell their bikes and for NO other reason
whatsoever! BTW, I've really got no problem with that fact, just don't
try to mask their motivations as altruistic..

Too obvious? Damn..

Clintonesque? Hmm, lemmee see, nope, no stains..

Oh puhleeze..

Umm, DSB? (yeah, I know, a cheap shot, but it was a gimmee and I
couldn't resist

Well, they negotiated those rules, they were the one that wanted them
and set them as a condition, weren't they? I dunno 'bout them, but I
would be happy, that is, unless of course there was "something" else
they wanted too and if that something else was control, well, to put it
mildly, they should take what they've got and run with it, because I
super doubt they'll ever have anything remotely close to the control
they once had, at least as long as DMG is involved..

Well then, if that's the case maybe the OEM's need to field more bikes.
Oh wait, nah, too expensive, oh wait, how could anyone else afford it?
Oh wait, that's the idea!!...

Absolutely not, FSB and ASB are different animals, so why try to put
them in the same cage?

Heh, as far as results go lately it's kinda' hard to argue anything
else, isn't it?..

Umm, well, maybe BECAUSE THEY WROTE THE FUCKIN' BOOK!!! For Christ's
sake, please stop with that BS, the Jap's got what they wanted, they
know what next year is gonna be like in the big class. So, are they in,
or out?
At this point it's hard not to see their hesitation as anything beyond
chicken-shit..

If I actually gave a flyin' fuk what any factory thinks (Nip, or
otherwise) I might be taken back, however, and as you might have
guessed, I'm unencumbered by such things..

Clintonesque sarcasm? Heh, more like T3 anarchy! (the order of disorder;-)

I gotta a few minutes so here's how I see it today;

1. For whatever reasons, be it the shit hole economy, or just showing
some flexibility, DMG relented and included FSB pretty much exactly
how the OEM's said they desired. Now, I think those OEM's need to put
up, shut up, or just go the **** away, because, as I've heard of late,
DMG is *NOT* prepared, much less inclined, to go any further and to be
very honest, I really can't blame them. Enough, is enough, time to
fish, or cut bait.

2. FSB and ASB are 2 different disciplines, and they need to chose one,
both, or for that matter, none, but after all the posturing and bluster
they need to make a statement one way, or the other, soon too. The very
last thing they want to do is get in a pushing, or shoving match with
these guys, as I kinda' doubt they will like how it turns out.

3. As the owners of Proracing DSB is DMG's prerogative, and if they
fund it as they claimed they will somebody will come, though how long
they may stay is another question.

4.AFAIC all the talk of allowing ASB in FSB is a non-starter, period!
If the OEM's want more FSB riders maybe they should hire more.

5.What else? Oh yeah, publish a no bullshit rule book for ASB and DSB.

6. Damn, I almost forgot, I want to know how much DMG paid for
Proracing, that is, where'd the f'ing money go???

Mark, you should know after all these years I'm an equal opportunity
bitcher if there ever was one, and I won't hesitate to dump on these
new guys when I feel it's necessary, but to be honest, they haven't
done a bunch yet besides DQ a few guys. So, until then, or maybe if it
rains this weekend in Ohio, I'll wait until there's something to bitch
about...

 

ummm, really? so MotoGP is small time?

Bruce

 

umm, the factories diod not give it that name your boys did.

 

No, MGP is a world championship explicitly for prototypes, AMA is a
national series allegedly based on street bikes, big F'ing difference!

 

And you know this how?

 

I still like the idea of scrolling LED's on the fairings. Heh, imagine
what the Preparation X bike would look like..

 

because it was DMG that announced this, they own the series, they named them.

Bruce