Crikey comment

http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090330-NSW-anti-bikie-laws-open-for-government-abuse.html
appears quite valid

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:51:31 +1000

Although.... I'm not sure " making it a jailable offence to be even
seen with a member of a proscribed organization" is correct in NSW.

My quick reading of the bill seems to indicate that a controlled member
can't associate with another controlled member.

You can be subject to an interim order, so if you have a beer with someone
who is under a control order and the coppers suspect you are doing it
because you are a member of the controlled organisation or treated by
members as a member, you can get an order served on you which you then
have to appeal, and if you end up near another controlled member while
the interim order is in force, then that's a jailable offence.

Controlled members can associate with non-members, although that does
put the non-members in danger of being issued with an order if there is
any kind of case that they too are a member or close enough.

I could see that one way to disrupt the organisations would be to make
it difficult for members to socialise with anyone, or to make it hard
for them to communicate with other members via a 3rd party. You can
do this by hassling anyone they are with, and getting interim control
orders on anyone they are seen with more than once. Getting that order
lifted would cost time and money and reputation.

member of an organisation includes:
(a) in the case of an organisation that is a body corporate--a
director
and an officer of the body corporate, and
(b) in any case:
(i) an associate member or prospective member (however
described) of the organisation, and
(ii) a person who identifies himself or herself, in some way, as
belonging to the organisation, and
(iii) a person who is treated by the organisation or persons who
belong to the organisation, in some way, as if he or she
belonged to the organisation.



Note the "in some way". So no protesting the legislation by wearing
Big Red Machine or Support Your Local Hells Angel t-shirts.

Heh. Time for some patch club types to go find a polly, slap 'em on
the back, buy 'em a drink, give 'em a keyring, then lay some anonymous
evidence?



Zebee

 

Surely you can get around the whole legislation by simply disolving
the 'Rebels' (or whoever) and transferring their assets (clubhouse,
business etc) to 'The Rebel Social Club Pty Ltd' a different
organisation. Then members resign and join the new organisation which
is not 'proscribed'.

Then the Police have to go thru the paperwork game, with associated
legal challenges, to get the 'new' organisation 'proscribed'.

And then you do it again. And so on.....
Would tie up a lot of Police tho.

Perhaps it would be a better idea to just nick then under existing
laws. Of course this would be a lot easier if the NSW Police were not
30% under the recommended manning levels. But this would cost money...

Ever noticed that every time there is a 'problem' the NSW state
government creates another law but provides no resources to either
enforce existing laws or the new law ?
..

 

Why is every body calling it the anti bikie law it could be anti
terrorist or anti any organisation that has criminals.In fact it
probably started being drafted for terrorist organisations.

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:52:52 +1000

BUt if they ahve a control order served on them, they still can't
associate until it is rescinded. So only the ones who don't can form
the new club.

Zebee

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:11:37 +1000

To me it has Anti-Muslim-Extremist written all over it.

Zebee

 

My understanding is that control orders will only be used on
inidividuals who they suspect of being club members but cannot prove
that they are.

ie Actual members are covered under the club being proscribed.
So...
.....if the club no longer exists...

 

Reading through it, I said before and I will say again, that the legislation
was drafted a long time before the bikie gang wars of a few weeks ago.
That stuff would take a long time, maybe months, to draft in the form it is
written, it can't be done overnight
As Zebee says, and adding, that it not only has anti-muslim written into it,
but against any other organization that the Government wish to call terorist
or outlaw.
It just happens to be very convenient that the bikie gang wars occurred when
they did, so the Government just added them to the loose meaning of the
legislation

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 05 Apr 2009 21:24:07 +1000

That's not my reading of the NSW act. The NSW one seems to declare an
organisation, then a control order has to be served on individuals who
are members or thought to be members.

Zebee

 

Burnie M wrote:

Funny how many they've nicked lately, all individuals and all without
the new laws being invoked.

 

To me it's RICO.

 

Zebee Johnstone wrote...

I think I mentioned this here but can't remember. Apologies if I'm repeating
myself. So, a mate of mine's an "associate" of a patch club. We drink and
socialise regularly at a local pub or we go fishing. Under NSW laws, or indeed,
SA laws, would I be at risk here?

A few week ago he invited me on a ride to the "clubhouse". I was tempted to go,
if nothing else to have a look at what all the fuss is about. But a Blackbird
rider rocking up there may have touched a nerve or two so I declined.

As for the friend's activities within the club, I know nothing about them. As
far as I'm aware he's some sort of junior associate. I don't know if he's
willing to go that extra step.

 

Zebee Johnstone wrote...

Well, that's OK, then...

:-(

As long as the majority of Australians are of Anglo/European descent, then they
won't give a shit what sort of laws these people enact. Until, of course, it
impacts them directly. But by then it may be too late.

 

Burnie M wrote...

If nothing else, Gerry and the Atrics will be able to wear their rockers without
fear of reprisals, hey? After all, if the patch clubs are no longer, then what's
the problem?

 

In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:00:41 +1000

Dunno about SA, but you are at risk under NSW laws if anyone believes
that you are associated with the club in any way, not just that
member. I think.

So for example, if he gave you something that looked like a
letter he was asking you to pass on, or if he introduced you to others
in the club and they treated you like a human being.

If you had done, and the club was under surveillance, and later under
a control order, then that might have been an addition to evidence you
are associated with them, should they wish to slap you with a control
order if the club was a declared organisation.

You can appeal the order, but as you wouldn't have any idea why they
thought you were associated you'd hve to prove a negative.

Zebee
- who is not a lawyer.

 

sound's like an anonymous call just like drug accusation might occur

No matter what you claim I as to the contents I can see brown shirt
Macarthism scream into base .

You make a solid case for judicious care to be taken Zebee

 

In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:30:47 +1000

THe whole point of this is to stop people from associating.

The obvious defensive tactic is to make it harder to tell who is a
member and who is just an innocent friend.

The obvious counter to that tactic involves collateral damage.

If I was the boss of a controlled organisation, I'd get the word to
my members any way I could to cultivate as many people as possible.
To get out there and interact in such a way that an observer looking
for "associates" would find them.

A weird reflection of Ghandi's ideas of civil disobedience, clog up the
courts with lots and lots of people.

Zebee

 

Obviously
now the thing is who has the right if any to decide what is a bad
association , apparently the govco thinks the big blue gang has and
considering the current and past illegalities and obvious liabilities
regarding some members being bent experience might be considered a
starting point but by it's very nature also makes a suitably judicious
decision in an unbiased manner to be impossible .

more information as to why you think so please

working here in Qld so now they photo an accuse with reliance on
people just plain giving in

 

In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:51:39 +1000

If you can't tell who is a member and who is a friend, you slap a
control order on everyone and stop the member associating with anyone
they did before.

This means the innocent friend's life is damaged as they can't meet
someone they knew and had no criminal contact with, and they run the
risk of meeting another controlled person and being done for that.
(The act does allow you to appeal a control order but all legal work
costs money.)

Zebee

 

In other words subject to abuse for no real reason apart from
political pique .?