Clunky noises fixed by lubing chain?

Tangible clicks from my chain (cyclic per chain revolution) resonating
through the frame and pegs made me feel like it was going to shoot off the
bike. I lubed it and everything got smooth again. I have one missing
o-ring that I've been able to find. That particular inner plate's slightly
skewed. Could this have been the cause of the noise?

Is motor oil cut down 1/3 or 1/2 by mineral spirits a good lube?

 

If you lubricate a part and the noise stops, that's a pretty good
indication where the problem is.

Why cut it with mineral spirits?

--
Later,
John



'indiana' is a 'nolnn' and 'hoosier' is a 'solkk'. Indiana doesn't solkk.

 

Well, more specifically, is the chain clicking through the frame something
that generally happens? Or does it sound like a failure waiting to happen?

It'll capillary-action itself better, I figure. I forget the moto chains
are o-ringed, and bicycle chains are not. Thus, bicycle chains need
penetrating action. I guess it's not as critical.

 

That's actually a small miracle, when you consider what the grease used
in o-ring chains is made of. There is less than a drop of oil sealed
into each link. The binder used in grease is a soapy material like
calcium, lithium, or barium. When the o-rings wear, the oil runs out
of the link, and all that is left is the binder. The link will kink,
and you'll hear a noise everytime the kinked link passes over the front
sprocket.

Yes. If your chain is otherwise in good condition, you might replace
the defective link with a clip type masterlink. Just degrease the side
plate and the clip with methyl alcohol or brake cleaner, let them dry
and apply two drops of red Loctite to the side plate before installing
the clip. It will never come off.

There is a measurement for cumulative wear over 20 links of chain (21
pins) The nominal dimension between link pins on a brand new run of
chain would be 0.625 times 20 = 12.500 inches.

So, if you stretch out the chain by hanging a weight off the bottom run
of chain and measure chain and find that the measurement is 12.600
inches, the total cumulative wear is 0.100 inches. The average wear on
the links would be 0.100 / 20 = 0.005 inches and the chain is
considered to be worn out.

Bzzzzt! Wrong!

That's a *very bad idea* if you have an o-ring chain. If you cut the
oil with mineral spirits, it will penetrate the o-rings and wash the
lube out of your chain.

You don't want to use any oil that is so thin it can get past the
o-rings. Don't ask how I know that.

Ordinary 30w or 40w motor oil is probably what your manual specifies.
The stated purpose of the oil iin some owners manuals s not
lubrication, it's rust prevention.

Notwithstanding that statement, some oil applied to the edges of the
*rollers* next to the sideplates will penetrate the rollers and do some
internal lubrication. Some of the oil applied to the rollers will also
cushion the shock of the rollers hitting the sprockets and will reduce
sprocket wear.

Around here, where it gets to 100 degrees every day for the whole
summer, I use 90w gear lube. A good application of 90w gear lube lasts
me 300 miles. It smells awful, but it's really easy to clean the chain
with a rag soaked in kerosene.

 

WRT a chain, the lack of an o-ring is failure waiting to happen. They
don't usually fail catastrophically, but without the o-ring to keep the
grease in, it leaves and your pin and roller wear.

As for the frame, if you can see the shiny/worn spot on the frame, and
the matching one on the chain, then you know where it is and can correct
the problem (e.g. by replacing the one link, or the entire chain).
Having a chain slap against your hard parts is not a good idea: steel
chains will eat through aluminum frame parts pretty quickly (though the
f2 is steel-framed) and steel on steel contact will tear up the chain as
well. This can lead to catastrophic failure if it keeps up long enough.

FB got this one: the o-rings keep the grease in. Don't get solvents past
the o-rings. I use a scottoiler on my VFR, and it essentially uses plain
oil (and lots of people don't buy Scottoil but just fill the thing with
whatever they've got lying around...hmm I should see whether it's time
for a refill, come to think). It doesn't fling too badly, and now that
I've installed a hugger (with chainguard) it catches basically all of
it.

--
Later,
John



'indiana' is a 'nolnn' and 'hoosier' is a 'solkk'. Indiana doesn't solkk.

 

Good thing this is a short-commute bike then!

It's not hitting the frame... it's a ticking feeling resonating through the
frame. No shininess or anything.

So regular motor oil it is...

 

Just like a singlespeed or fixed gear bicycle....

Sounds good.

The nice dealership in Tallahassee I went to told me that a chain/sprocket
set should last 15-20k mi. Sound about right? Bicycle chains last around
3k.

Duh... I totally forgot about that... I wasn't thinking. The oil/spirits
combo is good for bicycles.

So the o-rings seal in oil between the inner and outer plates?

Isn't 90w really thin, or is it just that it's oil and not oil/solvent? In
other words, wouldn't 90w be as thin as 40w cut with some solvent? Or is it
a thin oil with no solvent in it?

 

This thread reminds me why I ride a shaftie.

 

The actual length of time a chain lasts depends quite a bit upon the
conditions in which you ride (dusty?), the amount of maintenance you do
(if the chain gets too tight, it wears _fast_, if you run it dry, the
o-rings get torn apart and your lube goes away, etc.), and how you ride
the bike (heavy-throttle and sudden start/stop or shifts slap the chain
around) all affect the chain. If you keep to the recommended maintenance
interval, 15-20k miles is quite do-able. If you let it go, you can see
life drop by an order of magnitude (worst-case).

I'll say this: I put an automatic chain oiler on my VFR two years ago
and have not regretted it at all. I check my chain slack regularly, and
have only adjusted it once in that time...and that because I had
adjusted it wrong to begin with. I've put maybe 10k miles on my chain in
that time, and used maybe 500cc oil. Now, if I rode in the rain a lot,
I'd probably be using more oil, but still. I don't have to lube my
chain, ever. If it looks a bit dry, I turn up the flow rate and that's
that.

If you're going to keep your bike a while, I'd strongly suggest
investing in an oiler. There's lots of brands (scottoiler, pro-oiler,
hawk oiler) with different features (but similar prices). I've got a
Scottoiler, with a homemade dual-tip on it and am quite happy with it.
We can open another thread if we want to discuss automatic oilers in
more detail (and maybe I've posted a review in the past? I don't recall).

[snip]

From the center of the pin to the outside of the roller, you find:
the pin
a porus bushing material impregnated with grease
the roller
The o-rings seal the gap between the edge of the roller and the
side-plates, preventing the grease from being squeezed out, and
preventing grit from getting in. So, the o-rings don't keep oil between
the side-plates, but keep it between the pin and roller.

I think that I've seen diagrams...here's one:
http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/motorcycle/how_to/mc_chains.html

oil viscosity is directly proportional to the number: higher
number=thicker oil. THat's why multi-grade oils (e.g. 10W-40) have the
low number first. The "W" stands for "winter", so multigrade oils have a
lower viscosity at lower temperatures and higher viscosity at higher
temperatures.

--
Later,
John



'indiana' is a 'nolnn' and 'hoosier' is a 'solkk'. Indiana doesn't solkk.

 

If I may fine tune John's post a bit, just to make sure his message is
clear.

end quote>

Multigrade engine oils are a "base stock" of a light viscosity oil
with polymers mixed in to keep if from getting as thin as it normally
would get when the temperatures rise.
It gets thinner as it heats up, but maintains the viscosity of a
thicker viscosity oil.
So; 10w30 is a base stock of 10 weight oil, mixed with polymers which
will give it the viscosity of 30 weight oil at a given temperature.

Happy Trails!

Jim
2006 GasGas DE300
Team LAGNAF

 

I thought we had been here numerous times before.

A "Multigrade" engine oil can be exactly what you describe. That
would be typical for an oil with a very wide spread like 5W-50
or an oil made from mineral oil lube stock.

If 10W-30 or 20W-40 is made from a mix of good mineral and
synthetic lube stock, it can be made without any polymers (aka
Viscosity Index improver). Among full synthetics, Mobil claim
that their 15W-50 does not contain any VI-improver.

So, how is this possible? The base from where the grading
system started was the behaviour of stone age mineral oil.
That oil thinned out very badly as temperatures rose. There
are more modern lube base stocks that retains more viscosity
at high temperature and these will test like a thin old fashioned
oil when cold but like a thick one when hot.

Just a comment on the SAE40 engine oil / SAE90 gear oil
mentioned earlier in the thread. These are more similar in
viscosity than you'd think, it's just that the genius who wrote
the standards choose to use two completely different scales
for viscosity depending on where the oil was supposed to be
used. How American is that?

And could we please stop referring to "weight" of oil.
Without a standard this is meaningless (and an example of
another American speciality: confusing physics). The
SAE system is bad enough but at least SAE 30 engine oil
or SAE 80W-90 gear oil has a defined meaning.

 

There are two basic types of o-ring chain.

The premium original equipment o-ring chain will last about 20K miles
if you oil it with a petroleum oil. It has a wide flat o-ring that
looks like a rubber washer and using gooey commercial chain lubes from
an aerosol can can actually *glue* the o-ring to the side plates. When
you first start out on a cold morning with a goopy chain, the o-rings
can split and be spit out of the chain. That's oil or gear lube is
better for expen$ive original equipment chains that can cost $200.

Aftermarket o-ring chains have various o-rings. Some o-rings are shaped
like a rubber donut, others are X-shaped or W-shaped. The selling point
of those aftermarket chains is that the o-rings are "low friction" and
that you will win races because you have that "power edge".

Real racers don't need no steenking o-rings. Their mechanic throws the
chain away after every race.

But the street rider who buys the low friction o-ring chains may claim
that he gets 20K miles out of his chains. I've never gotten more than
8K out of an aftermarket chain.

Another possibility for chain lubrication is WD40. It's a proprietary
formula of some
aerosol solvent that evaporates, leaving a film of some unknown oil on
the chain. That oil has the approximate specific gravity of diesel
fuel. I have used WD40 in an emergency, but I usely carry a small
plastic bottle of gear lube with me if I'm going on an overnight ride.

O-rings between the inner and outer plates seal a tiny amount of grease
next to the hardened steel link pin. Grease is just a soapy binder that
holds oil near the point that needs to be lubricated. Since the oil is
thinner, it will eventually escape past worn out o-rings, leaving
nothing but the dried up binder. The binder has more friction than the
oily grease would have, so the chain kinks locally.

The lower the number, the thinner the oil. The weight of an oil is an
average of the
polymers within a given batch of distilled petroleum.

SAE 90w is logically more than twice as thick as SAE 40w. The American
Petroleum Institute established standards for quality and grading the
oils so the customer would know what he was getting from different oil
companies.

There is a funny story about how Harley Davidson confused owners into
thinking that they had to buy their oil from Harley Davidson
$tealer$hip$.

There was no other known source of oil with the enigmatic marking "SUS
105" on the can. So HD riders had to pay $3.00 a quart for the oil when
a buck was still worth a buck. That would be like paying around $18.00
a quart nowadays.

But, some wag pointed out that "SUS" stood for "Saybolt Universal
Seconds" It was the viscosity standard.

A Saybolt Viscosimeter held 50cc of whatever oil was under test, and it
had an orifice in the bottom and it was heated and 50cc of SAE 60w oil
would take 105,000 seconds to
leak through the orifice.

That's what "SUS 105" was. Straight SAE 60 weight oil...

 

How very interesting - if you want to float a boat in it.

See my other post. This should be true in any logic system but
SAE apply different systems to engine and gear oil.

Most batches of destilled petroleum will contain no
polymers at all (not with normal use of language). It
will contain a lot off different hydrocarbons.
Just to take one example, it might contain octane
that has an aproximative molecular weight of 114.
Octane has no viscosity to speak of and would not
rank as 114 weight lube in any system I know of.

If you know how the standards work, yes.
And, by the way, SAE standards are issued by the Society of
Automotive Engineers. If I remember right, API issue the
standards for quality where the grades go something like
SJ/CD. To confuse things even more you might want to look
out for the Japanese JASO grade for clutch friction (MA
or MB) if the clutch runs in the engine oil.