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Wizard <> spouted the following in

The lack of documentation and the substitution of good reports for bad is
utterly apalling. The nuclear indutry has some skeletons in it's closet
about bad xrays of pipe welds going walkies too...

 

) I'd forgotten your job title.

Point taken.

 

says...

I used to work for a company that was based on the docks. The Piper
Alpha was brought into Seaforth docks before being dismantled; it took
about 20 minutes for it to pass the office and during that time the
phones didn't ring at all, very wierd.

--
Lesley
ZXR400SP
"Not bad for a Scouser"
SBS#11[with oak-leaf cluster]
BOTAFOT#101A UKRMHRC#12
BONY#54P BOB#18

Un-cork me to reply

 

message

Only one of the crew died and that was one of the cabin crew.

 

You've been watching too many films.
What x-rays have gone walkies?

 

Prolly a Sikorsky.

 

I had hoped this bit showed that I wasn't wanting to emphasise a big
difference between public and private, it's just that most of our
systems are now private. Acountability and traceability of documentation
aopears to be better in the public sector however.

Which is why the retention of experienced staff is such an issue. When
the track was privatised, and the maintainence contracted out, a lot of
experienced trackmen were lost in the name of efficiency, or as we now
call it, asset stripping.

On the average European country? Including which eastern european
countries if any?

Pleaselets get away from the public/private debate and ask why Swiss
trains are safer.

Have the drivers had anything to say about this?

Good. The information should be posted on a Govt website so we can check
that the directors don't start again under another name would be good
IMO.

I'm not having a pop at you here but:

Commisiioning reports and making sootheing noises about learning lessons
is all very well but we still get the same mistakes made time and again.

All true, but I'd like to see the systems found wanting sorted PDQ.

When are the in cab rail signalling backup systems going to be fitted?

Decided it was "too expensive" last time I gather.

 

Maybe. Most of the Helicopters you see taking off from Aberdeen Airport
are Sikorsky S-61's or Aerospatiale Super Pumas.

HTH

 

Certainly, you can ask it in alt.atheism.
I said Sikorsky cos that's what I always fly on when I go offshore.
Sikorsky S-76.

 

Substitution of Xrays of good welds for xrays of badly welded pipe
joints.

I have this on good authority from someone inside the industry. But I
cannot reveal my source or prove this so lets not have a courtroom
battle over this one OK?

 

Given the age of most our nuclear reactors they've done well to survive
as long as they have then.

Did he mention the China Syndrome?

So you're saying that you can't reveal your X-ray source? Very wise.

 

This is highly illegal, extremely irresponsible and potentially very
dangerous, especially in the nuclear industry.
But you "cannot reveal your source"?
Which company was this, I'll make my own enquiries?

 

Some of them leak lots of contaminated coolant.

No. He did drink his tea out of a china teacup though.

<grin>

 

True, but that was the hoop these pipes had to pass through. Die Pen
testing was deemed insufficient.

 

Well, my comment was about the investigation of the Concorde crash, what
was yours about?

 

mb wrote:

The St. Exupery crash.

 

Roger - you started the debate by stating that private companies take
their safety responsibilities less seriously because they want to save
money. I don't agree with that argument because I don't think it is
proven as a rule.

Actually the real underlying issue is that the way that the system was
maintained under BR was not properly recorded and thus the organisation
was vulnerable to the loss of personnel. The lack of knowledge retention
processes, proper recording of asset condition and working practices
meant that there was inadequate documentation to carry forward to the
new owners. The risks associated with the old method of operation were
not correctly evaluated and mitigation measures were not put in place.
That is as much the fault of the old BR as government or those advising
on the sell off or the purchasers of the privatised businesses.

Any of the EU countries like France and Germany where I provided
examples of serious accidents but you chose to delete.

Sorry but they are no safer than British ones. You introduced the public
/ private debate - not me. I see you are just choosing to change the
basis of the discussion when you can't "hold your end up" so to speak.

Well there are drivers on the group and none of them disagreed with a
word that was said by the MD (regardless of whether they work for the
same company). As I am sure you are aware it is standard practice to
allow trade union representation in post accident interviews. There was
no suggestion that the Trade Unions considered the approach being taken
to be anything other than good practice - i.e. it's better to help
people back into the job rather than sack them on the spot if there are
genuine mitigating circumstances.

Well they are published on the web. Do a Google on "TAN" or traffic
commissioners.

If you don't have those reports that investigate and work out what the
lessons are then you are doomed to repeat the old errors.

Do you have any real safety responsibilities in your job? Do you have to
report on directorate safety every 4 weeks? Do you have to follow
through on formal investigations and carry out your actions which are
recorded on systems that the HMRI have full on line access to? Do you
have to design safety control processes as part of your job? Do you have
to carry out safety inspections and ensure all your staff are trained
and made aware of safety processes and procedures?

Let's just say that I do all of those things so I reckon I know what I
am talking about.

Some of us try to do the right thing but I am not naive enough to
imagine that an accident can never happen in my department or with my
staff or to passengers or staff out on the railway.

But there are reasons why some things are not sorted PDQ. This is
because the short term knee jerk response is not always best. Providing
you have appropriate mitigation in place then life can carry on until
more major expenditure can be justified.

If you don't like this argument then please explain to me why the
railways have to have ever more restrictive and therefore expensive
safety systems and ways of working while society (and I take it you
count yourself as part of that) tolerates mass slaughter on the roads
every day / month / year. The transport safety debate is completely and
utterly lopsided in this country. Can you explain why the Highways
Agency have no requirement placed upon them to protect to improve
barriers and protection at bridges following the Great Heck incident?

The train protection warning system is now fully fitted. Not quite the
same as full ATP but close enough.

 

Well for all I know these pipes may have gone on to be tested ultra
sonically elsewhere.

Leave it on file 'til he's around.

 

Pretty much irrelevant, what with Sikorsky being American and all.

 

I'm a reliable source of information on this sort of shit as I've been
doing it for the last 25 years...

It's not always the case that welds are both x-rayed and UT tested, but
there is usually a Dye Pen. or MPI test as well as UT or RT.
It's quite probable that critical welds are both UT and RT tested and also
checked at specified intervals on shutdowns.

What tallbloke has suggested can happen, but it's very rare and I would
hope that it hasn't happened on any nuclear power station.
Any company or individual doing this would be at risk of very heavy fines
from the HSE (among others I suspect) and would lose their qualifications.

There would be no reason for any NDT company to do it, but welding
contractors have been known to try it (also tried with me [1]). They get a
repair but then present you with another previously radiographed (good)
weld to x-ray and give you the identification of the bad weld.
The NDT company could find it difficult to spot this sort of deception,
besides the welding contractor could always find another NDT company who
wouldn't know about any repairs.

[1] This was on a Antwerp refinery and they tried it so many times with
our company that, er, somebody reported it to the refinery.