Bikers' Images (good/bad)

ON the other post, ''got your Back'', talking about Biker' Images, good
or bad.
Talking about the Media being more interested in covering the so called
''bad influence Bikers', and not covering the good, ''regular folks,
Bikers'', as much, probably, Is True!! That's Media, for ya.
And we, the public, are more interested in negative news....all of us.
We have a ''cheers'' & 'jeers'' section in our paper, and I will scan
the section, and mainly catch my self ''reading'' the jeers.
<>Last year on our little ''toys for tots'' ride, here in Texarkana, we
got a pretty good article of recognition. A funny thing, though----I
called the Marine's Center, next day, Monday. I ask the Marine, who
answered me, ‘‘How many Bikers, did ya'll count’ that came through
with a TOY?’’ He replied, in a friendly manner,
‘‘Oh, yes sir, we counted 275 Harleys’’
‘‘Sir, as all of ya'll parked, we had a Marine out there
counting’’! I answered, I hate to tell you, but, that's not correct.
‘‘really, sir’’? ‘hmmmh,’ he said. I went on to say,
‘‘there were Honders, Kiwasokis, Suzzikis, sportz bikes of all
kinds, Yamahas, and I said yes, there were a Few Harleys’’ he
laffed.
<>The general public, wants to think, that we all ride Harleys, and we
are all pretty good folks, I THINK. <>When we ride up and park, many
times, little old Ladies will look and comment about us, and our
Motorcycles. Or, some old timer, will say,
‘‘I use to have a Motorsikle!’’> Personally, I just don't see,
or hear, bad publicity, about motorBikes, here in our little old
community''.....This is just another outlook, another opinion......

<>haveAgoodDay-Bjay<>

 

ON the other post, ''got your Back'', talking about Biker' Images, good
or bad.
Talking about the Media being more interested in covering the so called
''bad influence Bikers', and not covering the good, ''regular folks,
Bikers'', as much, probably, Is True!! That's Media, for ya.
And we, the public, are more interested in negative news....all of us.
We have a ''cheers'' & 'jeers'' section in our paper, and I will scan
the section, and mainly catch my self ''reading'' the jeers.
<>Last year on our little ''toys for tots'' ride, here in Texarkana, we
got a pretty good article of recognition. A funny thing, though----I
called the Marine's Center, next day, Monday. I ask the Marine, who
answered me, ''How many Bikers, did ya'll count' that came through
with a TOY?'' He replied, in a friendly manner,
''Oh, yes sir, we counted 275 Harleys''
''Sir, as all of ya'll parked, we had a Marine out there
counting''! I answered, I hate to tell you, but, that's not correct.
''really, sir''? 'hmmmh,' he said. I went on to say,
''there were Honders, Kiwasokis, Suzzikis, sportz bikes of all
kinds, Yamahas, and I said yes, there were a Few Harleys'' he
laffed.
<>The general public, wants to think, that we all ride Harleys, and we
are all pretty good folks, I THINK. <>When we ride up and park, many
times, little old Ladies will look and comment about us, and our
Motorcycles. Or, some old timer, will say,
''I use to have a Motorsikle!''> Personally, I just don't see,
or hear, bad publicity, about motorBikes, here in our little old
community''.....This is just another outlook, another opinion......

<>haveAgoodDay-Bjay<>

Years past.. I've made the DFW Toys Run .. That gathering usually attracts
somewhere around 50,000 Bikers from all over Texas and parts of Oklahoma..
That's a heap of motorcycles.. The run commences from Dallas and from
Ft.Worth simultaneously and is routed east and west on IH-30.. The entrance
ramps are closed so that vehicular traffice is restricted to the
motorcycles.. All the ramps and overpass bridges are lined with people and
their video cameras..

The media usually use their helicopters to film this event.. As the bikes
merge from east and west, in Arlington, the sight from the aerial video is
awesome.. The convention center in Arlington is filled with motorcycles and
riders.. This is a spectacle that everyone should witness, at least once..

The reputations of Bikers are enhanced by these events that unselfishly
provide a much needed benefit of joy to the little ones who are most in
need..Donations of money, food in addition to the toys and clothing fill
that convention center by the truckloads..

The very few, who have diminished the images of Bikers should be educated as
to the consequences of their actions.. For the most part, the public does
have a good impression of us all.. There are some in the public who will
never be persuaded that we are anything but gangsters and outlaws.. That is
a pity..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

Whooo... Hoooo... I was on the same page till you commenced on the "pipes"
thing.. LMAO.. During the time of the Hell's Angels days that you talk
about, those guys didn't know what mufflers were and could care less what
anyone thought about the noise those old clunkers made when they rolled into
town..

I run straight pipes (Vance and Hines) on a little 800 Vulcan.. I've been
riding it for eight years, now.. The stock mufflers were so quiet that cars
would change lanes on me without seeing that I was in their blind spot..
After I put the straight pipes on it, they can hear me and respect my space
until they see me.. hmmmm... 'Sides.. I just like to hear the sound of a
good running V-Twin rumbling through them.. Nothing macho about that..
Generally .. when I run with others, I try stay on the "off-side".. It's
loud, but it sounds good to me..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

I have not been able to find out any information on the Toy Run this year..
LOL.. maybe they are trying to tell me something.. Anyway.. the run has
been done from the 5th to the 20th.. in the past years.. I've never made the
run from Ft.Worth, always from the Dallas staging.. If we can get a good
crew together, I'd be subject to stage out of Cowtown, this year.. Let's
work on it .. Fullstate..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

I've never had "some words" with any of my neighbors.. I have been living in
a mobile home park for the past twenty years.. I don't leave for "work"
anymore, since I'm retired.. I DO leave for other reasons at various early
morning hours.. Consideration for my neighbors has been one of the reasons
that I've never "had words" with them..

Matter of fact, they all watch out for me, as well as each other.. My
closest neighbor's home sits within 30 feet from where my motorcycle is
parked.. He's lived there for more than six years.. I've asked and he's said
that noise isn't a problem.. Although he can sometimes hear my motocycle
start, it is only for a very brief period of time and he doesn't mind.. Even
though, I could break glass with the rap of those pipes, there is only a low
rumble from them when I start it.. Then I leave..

If you were one of my neighbors, and wanted to "have words" .. we could do
that..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

Ok, let's hear why you think Harleys are poorly engineered.

Wakko

 

I'd suspect he's much like me, Waco.. They are "poorly engineered" because I
can't afford to buy one of them Gucci puppies.. LOL... Soon as you turn
that Springer over to me, I'll start braggin' on all that excellent
"engineering" ...

BTW... The Tropic of Cancer monument is between Saltillo and Zacatecas.. We
need to get down there, soon.. That's the only reference mark that you
haven't taken a picture of, so far.. Wha'cha' think ?

Aside from that, the DFW Christmas Toy Run is coming up on the 19th, I'd
like to ride this one with you, also.. Let's do it..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

Sounds more like you hang around people who would get alot out of PM once in
a while.

First things first, I've never had a problem removing a wheel (I assume you
mean wheel and not tire since only an idiot would want to remove a tire on
the side of a road) from a Harley. In cases where the wheel isn't surrounded
by baggage or fenders, they're easier than the japanese counterparts I've
worked on. I guess this would be more of a model specific thing more than
anything.

Then again, if you keep your maintenance up, the only time you'd be removing
a wheel would be in a garage or in a catastrophic event that you can't help.
In any case, I can't say that having a flat would be a "poorly engineered"
thing for Harley.

Okay, this one is just "downing" someone's motorcycle. Vibration wouldn't be
considered an "engineering" problem. Besides that, saying they're scattered
across the country is just plain wrong. As many miles as I've put on, I've
never seen Harley parts sitting on the side of a highway.

If it were a bicycle, I might put in with you. Since Harleys generally get
better gas mileage than other bikes and the heavier metals don't affect
anything other than they're heavy to pick up from the stand, I can't see
this as a design issue of any problem.

We won't go into the ins and outs about you being able to "handle" a Harley.

Has BMW worked out a belt?

Drive shafts are not the best things going. They make working on the
drivetrain harder and actually cause the motorcycle to lose some of the
power distribution.

As I've said many times, there are people out here who find BMW as an
immoral corporation and wouldn't ride one across town if the promise was to
get on another bike of their choice. The same goes for Ford. The same goes
for Nike.

Harley goes a long way to listening to their customer base and making the
bikes that their customers want to ride. If that means building models that
the only difference between years is the color of paint or a turn signal
design change, then that's fine...their bikes are selling "as is". When
sales start dropping, we'll start seeing more bikes like the VRod coming out
and more design changes with the models already offered. I don't believe
Harley is going to listen to someone who's riding a BMW on what they need to
design into their bikes.

Essentially, you rode the same bike and weren't used to the sitting
position. How is that Harley's fault?

You're trying to compare a Harley which has a laid back position and lower
revving engine to a BMW which has a foward sitting postion and higher
revving motor.

You do that. So far you've hit 0 for 5...and I don't even own a Harley. I
was hoping you'd say something about the age in the design of the engine,
and I was planning to slap that one down easily by pointing out that Harley
has had three major engine design changes since BMW's. That's generally the
argument is that the design of the engine is from the early 1900s...but
that's just plain wrong. Even the V-Twin configuration didn't come out until
the mid 50s. Then it was the most powerful on the market. With the design
changes taking the engine to what we have now, in many cases they still are
the most powerful of the configuration. You have some motors being built
with as much as 150hp straight off the gas. I don't know of anyone who's
building out BMWs to give as many choices of what Harley designs do.

 

I waited for Bill F. to respond first since the question was directed to
him. The items below are from my own experience, common problems
discussed on Preachers' excellent TC-88 mailing list and articles in
Motorcycle Consumer News. Lots of these have been noted in
rec.moto.harley too.


see if these problems ring any bells:

-TC-88 cam bearing catastrophic failures; MoCo tried to ignore it then
only warrantied it after failures approached 30% rate in 1999 and 2000.
-FL high speed wobble (long time chassis design problem)
-Burned out stators (common across the line)
-TC-88 bottom end failures now starting to show up at ~50k miles
-Original base gasket failures (3 different gasket materials so far)
-Soft cam facings, intermittent premature cam wear
-Fogging/moisture in the guages is common
-Fuel guage innaccuracy is common

silly ideas:
no centerstand (but they weld in guides for a lift?) then they ask for
the oil level to be checked with bike upright
no 88-B (counterbalanced) motor available for FL touring series
45 amp is way under powered for a modern alternator on a touring bike
factory spoked wheels still requiring tubes
5.5 gal is on the small side for a touring bike (injected)

late to the party:
ABS finally offered for the first time in 2006 but on FLHR-P police
models only
vibration damping on some Sporties


The fit and finish of HD is generally excellent, the look is what sells
them, imo. I had flaking/cracked chrome on my tail rack in under 6
mos., and it was replaced under warranty. The Road King vibration at
idle will literally rattle your teeth; under way the isolation makes it
tolerable, but the isolation also isolates the rider from the feel of
the road. the FL series are undoubtedly the worst handling big bike on
the road and the wobble in high speed sweepers is well documented,
unpredictable from bike to bike and proven dangerous in many accidents
attributed to it.

HD do have a cool factor and there is a world of 3rd party options,
which is a blessing and a curse; some are good, some are crap. Not
everyone experiences all the problems, some experience none, but as a
whole there are common issues that should have been resolved a long time
ago or should have never occured in the first place. There are also
plenty of nitwits who take something reliable and in their attempts to
"improve it", they successfully screw up things worse than ever. HD can
certainly be a decent platform within its design constraints and lots of
people (like Waco) have logged many, many miles on them. They fit a
notion for some of what a motorcycle should be with no pressure to
innovate. They sell out the wazoo in the US, so it fills a demand. They
don't promote themelves as the leading edge of technology and that's not
what alot HD buyers are looking for anyway.

"If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand."

 

Brian's a moron. Why do you bother?
--
gburnore@databasix dot com
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um, not exactly.


Flathead: 1909-1936

The Flathead was named because of the tell-tail flat vented tops that
are recognizable at the top of each cylinder head. This is the famous
motor that propelled the Harley-Davidson to victory after victory in the
motorcycle races of the twenties.

Knucklehead: 1936-1947

On the eve of WW2, Harley-Davidson introduced an overhead-valve V-twin
with knuckly looking valve covers. The new motor, affectionately named
the "Knucklehead", performed well both for HD and for America in the
difficult years to come.

Panhead: 1948-1965

WIth improvements to engine design, like hydraulic valve lifters that
supplied oil through rocker arms, the Panhead hit the market in 1948. It
was named for the pan-like valve covers replacing the knuckle covers.

 

Are you claiming that having a bike that requires an inner tube is an
example of good engineering?
Even Harley has tubeless tires.

 

I've done 50k miles this year. I've seen bikes of all marques on the side of
the road...including Beemers. I've always stopped to see if they need help.
To be honest I've been on the side of the road myself but only needed
trailering once (flat).

Earlier this year I was coming down the west coast and found 5 BMWs on the
side of the road. Traffic was slow and they were all overheating. Good
engineering?

I know people that do this all the time. "Easy" is a subjective word. What's
easy for one isn't easy for another. I prefer to rely on my luck and ability
to find a shop nearby. But I have no doubt I would be able to repair a flat
on the side of the road, but not as fast as on BMW, I suppose. It doesn't
happen often enough for me to worry about it, though.

Loc-tite has been around for awhile. Those bolts should be torqued to
factory specs.

I *like* a heavy bike.

Didn't know that was a requirement.

You road Softails and expected them to handle? Bwahahah!
Try an FXR, dude.

 

no shit

which in HD's infinite wisdom is no longer manufactured.
it's probably the best contemporary bike they made in the 90s, sought
after on the used market by HD cognoscenti but still orphaned by the
MoCo. FXD just ain't the same. Bean counters do it again.

 

one thing that many people often skip when talking about the HD drive
train maintainence is the Primary Chain. The final drive may be a belt,
but the OEM motor to transmission coupling is a multirow chain with a
tensioner in an oilbath. That tensioner has a pressure plate that does
wear out and can spew bits into places plastic and metal shards
shouldn't go. The tensioner itself is maintainence item and needs
periodic replacing as well as the primary chain.

It ain't a perfect world anywhere. MTBF applies to all machinery.

 

The flathead motor wasn't even close to the same configuration. The entire
motor wasn't even close. Basically, it was a two cylinder motor...and that's
it.

The flathead was also banned by AMA per Harley from their events...thus
creating the "outlaw" biker. The "outlaw" name came from the racers forming
their own events outside sanctions.

Better try again. Harley didn't produce any motorcycles for public use
during the war. They only produced the 750cc motor which was approved for
use by the military. Indian was beat out because they produced the 500cc
which the military called for...even though Harley exceeded the limit and
won the contract.

However, the knucklehead was the first to come close to resemble the look of
the VTwin Harley uses today by moving the valves...thus making the knuckle
look on the covers. But even then, it still wasn't even close to the
mechanical workings.

This was the first VTwin to equate to anything Harley uses.

And what year was this?

It's nice to see you got your information from a webpage. That must be the
only way you know anything about motorcycles...is to use someone else's
opinion instead of fact.

 

Me thinks I found your problem...if you'd put some air in those tires and
stop riding around on flats, you might not have so much of handling
problems.

Six inches? Right! You don't even realize that the two bikes are both on the
softtail frame. You can't get six inches if you pulled the seat and sat on
the frame....even WITH a lowering kit.

The rest of your insulting crap I won't even address. It's based on just
spewing insults because you don't know anything else to say. You'll be hard
pressed to find someone here who knows even the least about Harleys and will
agree with anything you said. Insulting me won't change that.

 

This discussion has nothing to do with "engineering" or anything to do with
a "better" built motorcycle.. This is strictly a matter of preference and
what someone is "used to".. With exception of a couple of manufacturers
which I am not familiar with, I've ridden with damn near every bike that is
on the market.. Even a few customs, which are one of a kind.

Every manufacturer produces a motorcycle that excels in it's type or
category.. They all build good bikes.. The matter of preference comes into
play when you have discovered the type of bike you are most comfortable
with.. Touring bikers wouldn't be caught dead on a cruiser or sport bike,
etc.. The Honda Goldwing, for example is the premier tourer and it's riders
are loyal to that make and model.. Harley, Kawasaki, Yamaha and Susuki also
build an excellent touring motorcycle.. BMW builds a sport and sport touring
bike.. that is excellent.. Harley builds the premier of cruisers.. That's
not to say that Kawasaki and Honda are building scraps..

The cruisers class of motorcycle is my personal preference because of the
weight and the manuverability and the versatility to detail the motorcycle
to the rider's taste.. I personally believe that out of the crate, the most
ascetic cruiser would be the Harley Heritage Classic.. I love the way the
motorcycle handles and looks is what a motorcycle should look like..

That being said, the motorcycle is out of my price range and I just can't
afford one of those high dollar classics.. That is why I ride a Kawasaki
Vulcan 800.. The V-Twin engine tunes out, and can be simply modified to
afford the feel, sound and performance of the classic Harley V-Twin.. The
800 is chain driven, which makes it a torquer motorcycle than, for example
the 1500 Vulcan.. The classic model VN 800 can be detailed to look any way
you want it to.. Yamaha builds a V-Twin cruiser that has the same appeal for
me.. Both are in my price range and affordability..

I've only repaired a flat on the road, one time.. It was on a '84 Goldwing..
That was one helluva job and I would do almost anything to avoid repairing
another.. In over twenty years of riding motorcycles and several hundred
thousand miles of running hard.. once is enough for me.. I've never left a
motorcycle on the side of the road, and have experienced several different
instances of various breakdowns..

The motorcycles we ride should be ones that we enjoy and appreciate..
Loyalty to that make and model is expected.. A good running and good looking
motorcycle appeals to every biker, regardless of whose name is on the gas
tank. That being said, the man riding that motorcycle has a lot to do with
the performance of his bike.. He understands his motorcycle and can tweak
the best performance from it.. The rider who doesn't understand his
motorcycle will never get that peak performance ..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

Interesting comment from someone who has never owned a Harley.

I suggest you tell this to HD. I'm sure they will be interested to know
they didn't manufacture V-Twins prior to the 50s.

From the MoCo own pages:

"1921 The first 74 cubic inch V-twin engine is introduced on the JD and
FD models."

complete HD history by decade:
http://www.harley-davidson.com/CO/HIS/en/history.asp?locale=en_US&bmLocal
e=en_US


for a quick review of the motor development:

http://www.factoryfat.com/hdmotorhistory.html

 

I wasn't aware that buying a Harley came with it's own curriculum of
classes.

I didn't say they didn't produce two cylinder motors in a V angle. The
discussion was about the design of the motor not improving since...

Now, either show that the design hasn't changed or shut up.

Again, show that the design is the same. The first motor to equate to what
Harley has in their motors now was made in the 50's. There were huge
differences between the one you're quoting and what is being used today.

That's nice. Even by the pictures you can tell the difference between the
motors.

Now if you want to get to "technical", the first motor that Harley built
with major design changes making a far superior motor to what they were
building before was in the mid 80s with the EVO. That motor used aluminum to
increase cooling and sealing. It also made for a smoother running motor thus
the use of aluminum made for a longer lasting and less hassle motor.

You wanna debate that, go talk to Harley. Either show that those 1921 motors
were the same design as what we have today, or shut up about it. I would
suggest that the only thing you know about those motors is what you see in
the pictures and read on a webpage somewhere. In your "fat happy" haste to
prove me wrong, you took a comment out of context which was part of a
discussion...and tried to capitalize on it. You're showing your ass right
now, Johnny.

* What's funny about this, you didn't even read the bottom of the webpage
that you quoted from:
1st side-valve motor: 1926 - single cylinder.
1st side-valve twin: 1929 45" "D"
Side-valve motors made until 1973.
Racing H-Ds of the '20s were the "JD", "JDH" etc. single & twin-cam 1000 &
1200 cc IOE, and "pea-shooter" (21" 350cc OHV single), not side-valve. 1st
successful racing side-valve was the mid-1930s RLDR 45".