Best way to travel 5 miles to a train station?

Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

I'm with you on pavement cycling and its actually many times more
dangerous for the cyclist than riding on the road with the rest of the
traffic.
Click to expand...

Except where inappropriate traffic islands have been added to the
roads. Then the pavement is safer. And pavement cycling is often
condoned by the local plod in such places.

This is /not/ to dsay I think pavement cycling is big or clever, but
as long as road design is encouraging pavement cycling while pavement
cycling is illegal, I think things are painfully muddled.

The problem is that occassional cyclists are led to beleive
that cycling on the roads is massively dangerous and are increasingly
encouraged by their council to cycle on pavements by the addition of a
bit of white paint and a blue sign. Is it any wonder that most
occassional cyclists then think that the pavement is where they are
expected to cycle even when the magic white paint is missing?

Tony
Click to expand...

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Gunga Dan · Aug 13, 2004

Gawnsoft said:

How rare do you think car on pedestrian/cyclist/motorcyclist
collisions are?
Click to expand...

It's all relative.
I've never seen a pedestrian/cyclist/motorcyclist accident involving a car
although I have seen the odd cyslist throw themselves down the road unaided,
and pedestrians fall over their own feet quite frequently too.

Gunga Dan · Aug 13, 2004

Gawnsoft said:

Let me know when pedestrian routes are left unaffected, and the
motor-powered travellers are given the lengthy diversions.
Click to expand...

Have you never driven in a British town then?

Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

You've just covered two different points here though - a motor vehicle
driving along a pavement is dangerous, I would agree. Certainly more
dangerous than a cyclist doing same. But this is very uncommon. At least
if you discount incidents that are not connected with parking manoeuvres.

But a motor vehicle parked partially or totally on a pavement is not
particularly dangerous.
Click to expand...

Unfotunately, there is a stage between driving on the road, and being
parked stationary on the pavement. It involves driving up onto and
along the pavement.

(It might force people to take avoiding action,
perhaps forcing them into the road, but the vehicle itself is not
dangerous. But this is a different, albeit as serious, point.)
Click to expand...

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Bet those 50 are the result of a driver who has lost control and has
driven onto the pavement
Click to expand...

Feel free to check this up. I suspect that some of them are this, and
others are kids being hit by cars being deliberately driven on or
across the pavement.

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

But, assuming first that the car is somehow different from the
surrounding road (i.e. the only car parked in an otherwise empty road),
you'd be able to see it from a way away, signal appropriately, move out
and it would perfectly obvious from your signal and subsequent road
position to following drivers what you were doing.
Click to expand...

Very true - and if drivers were competent enough to spot this, judge
distances and speeds correctly, andthen pull out far enough and in
time, or slow down enough to sit safely behind the cyclist, then this
would be wonderful.

Unfortunately, this is /not/ sufficiently reliable driver behaviour.

Pinch points like the one you describe are one of the most dangerous
places for cyclists.

And if it wasn't on its own in being parked on the road, you're probably
out to pass it anyway.

I fail to see what the problem is. Or are you just looking to find a
problem where there isn't one, just to try to make a point?
Click to expand...

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Source of that factoid?
Click to expand...

I forgot the IIRC. Sorry. It's only 100 times, not 300 times.

I have seen estimates of up to 50 million adult
bicycles in the UK. There are over 5 million childrens' bicycles alone, so
unless the number of cars has increased dramatically in recent weeks the
figure of 300 is Clearly Bollocks [tm]
Click to expand...

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Paul said:

Given the number of cars is more then 300 times the number of bikes,
you are more likely to be hit by a specific bike then a specific car.
Click to expand...

Source of that factoid? I have seen estimates of up to 50 million adult
bicycles in the UK. There are over 5 million childrens' bicycles alone, so
unless the number of cars has increased dramatically in recent weeks the
figure of 300 is Clearly Bollocks [tm]
Click to expand...

Woops! Sorry - I thought I was responding to a response to my earlier
post.

Btw, the latest stats are just out - there are 29million-odd cars on
the roads today.

This is up 1.8% from 2002.

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Slander, or libel, I forget which. Either way you have commited a
criminal, or civil, I forget which, offence.

As well he should be. Lets paint a picutre. As you approach a green light
you check both ways anyway. You see patient cars waiting at their red
lights, you continue at 30mph
Click to expand...

Traffic-lit junctions are hazards, and therefore you should be slowing
to negotiate them rather than continuing at previous speed.

(speed limit 40), then a bike darts out at
20mph (30 foot per second) from 10 foot from your left. You have no chance
to even register it, let alone swerve before it hits you.

Had the bike somehow got away with it, and you have somehow swereved out of the
way, crashing into a lamppost or perhaps another vehicle, or god forbid, a
bike riding legally, your insurance would be the one paying up, the bike
would get off scot free in his blissful arogant universe.

Real cyclists would condemn this dead wanker.
Click to expand...

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Based on my experience it's over 50%. I'm aware that it's probably worse
in London though

Strange, most cyclists do tar all car drivers with the same brush.
Click to expand...

Oh? Feel free to provide some basis for this assertion.

I have no problem with somebody breaking the law if it doesnt endanger me
(or anyoen else)
Click to expand...

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

80% of helmet statistics are made up, according to reliable sources.
Click to expand...

You count joke usenet sigs as 'reliable sources'!??

Do
you think these stats are any different? Go to your local road (say the A4
past the Kensington Tesco) and count the number of bikes riding past compared
with number of cars.
Click to expand...

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Gunga Dan · Aug 13, 2004

Gawnsoft said:

Beauty, and its opposite, are in the eye of the beholder.
Click to expand...

True but:

http://www.amsport.hu/foto/hirek/2004_0126/hir_peugeot_407.jpg

Very true. unfortunately, car drivers have demonstrated themselves
incapable of not driving into pedestrians.
Click to expand...

This is the nub of it. What are the pedestrians doing in the way of car
drivers? I'm not talking about occasions where car drivers lose control and
wipe out a bus queue, I mean in cirumstances where the car is making
progress perfectly legally along the highway.

So we're reduced to either mitigating the effect of this incompetence,
or removing more control from the incompetent drivers with e.g. speed
cameras.
Click to expand...

I don't think we better start on those.

A substantial amount. Not enough to mitigate the increases in vehicle
performance, or risk compensatory behaviour by drivers caused by
perceived increases in accident safety for drivers, or the significant
increase in vehicle mass that can be observed as the years roll by.
Click to expand...

How much? The latest vehicles are surely only just coming on stream. There
can't be much data already. So really it would be better to prevent the
accidents in the first place - but not all the responsibility should be
heaped on the driver. As you may have gathered, I'm a motorcyclist so I
ought, in theory, to be in favour of softer landings. I'm well aware however
that my best chance of escaping death or serious injury, is to not crash
into a car in the first place.

It tends not to add very much at all - (about the same as seat belt
tensioners add). Most weight increase has already happened, to
advance driver and passenger accident safety.
Click to expand...

Are you in the industry? I'm surprised it doesn't add more than the weight
of a seat-belt tensioner, although I'm sure you're right that most of the
weight has already been added.

Are you saying A-pillars have been designed to date to maximise
driver's view? (A quick trip in the now aged Ford Focus will refute
this).
Click to expand...

Actually I read an interesting article in this month's Bike magazine where
they report that the design of cars over recent years wrt secondary safety
has increased, often at the expense of primary safety. All I was saying in
this case was that if you make a change in one area it can often have a
detrimental effect in another.

True. But as long as drivers are killing pedestrians, (as opposed to
pedestrians killing drivers) I'd hope that no drivers would object to
making cars slightly less awful for pedestrians.
Click to expand...

What proportion of pedestrians are killed by drivers performing an illegal
manoeuvre and what proportion is down to bad observation on the part of the
pedestrian? Speeding cars is a grey area of course because it's still poor
observation that puts the ped in the path of the car - or a bad decision as
to where to cross the road.

Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

....

I admit I was quite surprised to find that the number of bike miles:car
miles was 1:100. However when talking about deaths, cars travel faster, a
collision is more likely to result in death. More anecdotal evidence, I've
been hit by a bike rider twice in the last 9 months, I've been kit by a
car 0 times ever.
Click to expand...

I've been hit by a car once. And twice a stationary car I've been in
has been hit by another car or lorry.

I've never been hit by a bicyclist, to the best of my recollection.

I've almost been hit (had to jump back of zebras when I
was crossing infront of a stopped car because a bike has decided to ignore
my right of way) a dozen times by bikes, maybe 2 by cars, and 3 times by
motorbikes.

Surely I should be hit by a car 100 times more then a bike, and nearly hit
by a car 100 times more then nearly hit by a bike?
Click to expand...

A high proportion of car miles are driven on motorway, or
pedestrian-unfriendly dual carriageway.

Almost zero miles are pedalled on motorways or restricted d/c.

A great many bicycle lanes are shared use paths with pedestrians.
Very few roads are shared use with pedestrians - often where
pedestrians are frequent and common, there is a foopath seperate from
the road's carriageway

So you would not expect the ratio of car miles where pedestrians are
encountered, to bike miles where pedestrians are encountered to remain
at 100:1.

A large number of bike riders, and probably everyone in this group, are
legal, but from my experience I'm sad to say the majority arent. They jump
red lights,
Click to expand...

RAC stats show bike red light runners and car red-light runners to be
a (broadly comparable) minority of their respective populations.

ignore zebras, ride on pavements and the paths through
shepherds bush green (theres a segregated cycle way too!). If one bike
stops at a red light, others usually will, but a ood bike rider is very
rare indeed. The lycraclad bike geeks are generally better then the
average rider, but they're not perfect by a long shot.

Pedestrian-Bike collisions are rarely reported so any statistics are
irellevent.
Click to expand...

Hardly. As you say, it's just that they rarely result in even minor
injury.

There are many collisions involving cars that result in damage so
minor that they never get officially reported.

I am well aware, as a past, and probably soon to be future, bike rider,
that many cars are buggers when it comes to driving, but you only tend to
remember the bad ones. When I used to drive (I dont own a car any more as
there's no justification in the middle of London). I was always courteous
to bikes riding safely. Always beeped my horn or flashed my lights when
they shot out of side roads or the wrong way up one way streets, or
dressed in black with no lights at night (or those flashing LED
lights that make judging distance impossible) though.
Click to expand...

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

According to the stats, yes. However as most of the bike-pedestrian
interfaces are unlikely to be reported,
Click to expand...

Why would that be? Because the damage is minor or nonexistent
perhaps?

You're aware that collisions involving cars that involve only minor or
nonexistent damage are often left unreported?

and as they don't have insurance
companies to deal with, the stats are probably a bit wrong.
Click to expand...

True - but they're wrong for everyone.

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Given the number of cars is more then 300 times the number of bikes, you
are more likely to be hit by a specific bike then a specific car.
Click to expand...

At best, the ratio's about 6 to 1. (29 million-odd cars. 5 million+
bikes)
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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Let's not have this argument, eh?

Surely we can all agree that people who advocate bicycles as a serious
form of transport are all Gruniad-reading, sandal-wearing, bearded,
vegetarian lefties who work as University lecturers because they've
never had the guts to leave academia and face the real world.
Click to expand...

Hmm - that doesn't sound like me. I completed my three years of uni
before I turned 20, and was happy to go out and do other things.

I've been an engineer building nuclear power stations, worked as a
senior manager in a City law firm, and a senior manager in a UK
company that's currently larger than IBM. (Not including my stint as
an analyst at the Stock Exchange)

I used to have a collection of four cars (including a mid-engined open
top 2+2, plus a hot hatch as the 'using' car). One of my funnest
trips was going down the M11 at 110mph in an unmarked Cossie, as part
of a City of London/Met Police Advanced Driver Training.

I tend to read the Economist and the FT, with occcasional forays to
the Herald, Times and Telegraph.

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

David Martin wrote ....

So it seems safe to assume that your experience and so called knowledge
are based on a very localised world view.
Click to expand...

I'm trying really hard to see how that conclusion could follow on from
what you were responding to... Perhaps you could explain ?

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

Tony Raven wrote

There is no argument that getting at least some people out of their
cages and onto buses or two wheeled transport is a Good Thing but some
poor bastard has to pay for it.
Click to expand...

Oh? you've never heard of a win-win situation?

The people powered lobby conveniently
seem to forget this and as yet have failed to be seen to be asking to
pay some form of road duty to have all those nice white van free zones
painted on the roads.
Click to expand...

They pay for it by lowering car congestion and increasing road user
safety. Would you prefer every cyclist used their car instead?

You would get a lot of support from the likes of me if you did but as it
is you are still a bunch of freeloaders.
Click to expand...

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

davek wrote

A bit pointless if you get your dream of a people powered transport
system.
Click to expand...

Hardly - think of it as a major source of encouragement towards the
dream, and then a way of ensuring the dream stays put.

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Gawnsoft · Aug 13, 2004

How exactly does a speed camera stop a cyclist tearing through a
residential 20mph zone at over 30mph?

Actually, that's unfair. Speed cameras dont exist in areas like that, they
are mainly on through routes devoid of pedestrians (and bikes for the most
part)
Click to expand...

Of course, the fact there are enough dspeeding cars there to cause a
road safety problem would probably explain why pedestrians have been
avoiding those spots like the plague in recent years.

I'm more concerned about the bikes that jump red lights in front of police
cars and the police dont stop them. As for speed, pretty irellevent really
- ride at an appropiate speed (not like that idiot that thought it would
be fun to do a time trial on a public road in 1999 and reached 53mph,
almost killing himself and causing a pile up), but more importantly ride
on the road.

I have no problems with law abiding bikes, and on the rare times I do
drive, I have always given them a wide berth and plenty of respect. It's
the wankers running me over on the pavement, or riding in packs of 4 or 5,
that annoy me.
Click to expand...

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