As the worm turns..

Another color change, hopefully the final one, for a while anyway.

http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jul/080703z.htm

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=33116

Looks like some folks actually started talking...

 

Perhaps more like someone actually started listening, that somebody
being DMG, of course. Probably the result of the MIC announcement, the
positions being taken by Miller, Laguna and perhaps other tracks, and
the fan outrage in general. What would be really interesting to know
is if any change forthcoming is the result of Jimmy France getting
directly involved, banging on his employees and shouting, "What the
hell are you guys doing?!"...

Anyway, the devil is in the details, as you say, and there are many
more questions than answers still. So is this the latest version of
Literbike, isolate the factory teams and try to keep the rest out - no
purse or mandatory contingencies, etc.? Does the latest rumor about a
1000 SStock class ("American SB") still stand, and is GSB ("Genuine
SB") just a 09-10 stop-gap, do they switch if the FIM's SB dumb-down
at the national and perhaps world level starts to build momentum? Or
do they add a 600 SSt class instead, since so much momentum seemed to
have been behind the removal of AMA SSt? Or are we still at two
classes?

In any case, we are where we should have been 3-4 months ago, DMG
having wasted all that time and created all that aggrevation for
everyone for essentially nothing. At least everyone learned that these
guys are not to be trusted - with anything.

Now what about that riding in the rain at all road courses?

 

Of course this really begs the question: Why not just run the '09/'10
AMA rules they had already set up and agreed to. Run 'em for two years,
then pull the rug out from under them. No reason to adopt something like
WSBK when they already have a rules package. Nothing to negotiate any
more. Run '09, start talking new rules winter of '09, run '10 and change
them to whatever in '11.

What a waste of time.

And the other key, if adopted as rumored, it's a complete cave for DMG.
This whole experience has been very expensive for them in terms of good
will and respect, from everyone. Lot of folks had a lot of high hopes
coming in to this, and most of that has been shattered, even if they're
"seeing the light". They may be seeing the light, but we have all seen
them "in the light", and didn't necessarily like what we saw.

Regards,

Will Hartung

 

"Just run FIM rules" Is that an option? With BSB losing the plot
somewhat over the rules, having the USA, UK and WSB all use the same
rule set makes some sense. Perhaps then we'd get back to having wild
cards in the WSB races.

And on that several teams in BSB have said they won't be doing wild
cards because they don't have FIM spec engines and can't afford to
produce them for one/two races.

 

True, but if adopted it's an about face on DMGs "we're doing this, you
all can get stuffed" attitude. Maybe it's just perception, but the
impression we're getting (granted from the "injured" parties) was
basically there was no room for the 1000's at all, then the contrived
"You want, 1000's, you got 1000's" in LOLBike that the factories balked on.

If the vision was to get the factories out of racing, it's either
working very well, or not working at all. It seems DMG felt that the
factories would buckle instead of posturing to pull out, if not outright
fork a new series. The "We're the only game in town, you have to deal
with us" replied with a "Well, no, actually, we don't."

This late in the game, save for a couple of random reader letters, I
haven't seen a positive article on DMG anywhere. Now we're late in the
year, we're already hearing about Miller potentially culling the AMA
from their WSB round, and everything is confusion.

All because they came in cocksure and blinded with their vision,
assuming all concerned would grin an bear it.

Now we see that's not that case, and that folks are willing to sacrifice
the bathwater and the baby.

So, adopting WSB, I think, is mud in their visionary eye. As you say, it
doesn't fix the primary complaint about the series -- expense and
unobtainium. It's a complete concession to the factories, even if it's a
"Secondary series".

I like your idea of DSB being a "one stop mini endurance", that sets it
apart, it's not TOO long, and it adds in all the elements they want to
the mix. I can't see it running twice a weekend, tho, but, frankly, I
can't fathom seeing the first event on Saturday if I have to endure a
Moto-ST race to get there. The Moto-ST race, frankly, turns the whole
thing in to a one day event for me.

That doesn't affect TV, mind, but...

If they ran "FSB" twice, 1pm Saturday followed by Moto-ST, and 3pm
Sunday, following Red Bull and DSB, then I can see going both days. I
can come for qualifying, practice, the FSB race, and then leave, maybe
catching a bit of Moto-ST, or whatever. Then I can come back on Sunday
for the 3 other races.

That's a decent value to me.

Then, if their vision works out, in two years they can demote FSB to
Sunday, maybe swap back "new DSB Sprint edition" for the two races, and
slowly get back to their promised land. But at least it's transitionary,
and gives time for everyone to work things out and get to know one
another than what is happening right now.

Right now the clock is ticking, and we don't have rules, we don't have a
spec tire vendor (that we know of), certainly no testing, and we have
factories and tracks talking about pulling out completely.

Of course, the real crux of this, as a spectator and remote observer,
we're not supposed to know about ANY of this. It's all supposed to be
done in smoked filled rooms. Seems to me, after the first release, every
other thing we've heard from DMG is reaction or rumor (save the "race in
the rain for cash and prizes" comments). But, as far as the new series,
they haven't said much "officially". It's all either second hand or
reactions to "leaks".

But what we have heard is all has been "from the throne", from the
Dictator, running his dictatorship. From the lorded over peoples, all we
hear is dissent and off with his head.

If DMG accepts the WSB proposal, it goes in the face of the
dictatorship, it ruins, for the time being, the grand scheme. Everything
I've heard from DMG has been, essentially, little more than contempt for
what we have now. If they accept the WSB proposal, they'll be holding
their nose doing it. "We'll do it, but under protest". They may talk
compromise, but it sure doesn't come well from their statements and
posturing. There's no sincerity here.

That will mean, even if adopted, FSB will be the red headed black sheep
step child, and likely shown the door as soon as practical, and perhaps
actively undermined. It goes against, to the core, the philosophy of
what DMG is trying to do. But, apparently, they're not strong enough
that they think they can let the factories just walk. They want to tell
them to get stuffed, but seem, so far, to lack the willpower to stick to
their guns, pushing their vision through the throngs assembled outside
with torches and pitchforks.

The letter in Soup from Kawasaki (I think it was Soup, maybe RRW,
anyway) was interesting. On the one hand he says they like racing,
they're committed to racing, racing is important to them. But on the
other he commented that he can see the program being removed completely,
like back in '83 and Muzzy was finally able to get them to recreate the
program in '88.

That's the consequence, I think, if DMG pushes it and the factories
walk. It's very hard to see a second series succeed, and it's easy to
see the factories go on hiatus for several years. Maybe in 5 years, DMG
will want them back, and will have to go back knocking on their doors.
Or, perhaps the factories will be knocking on DMGs door. Kind of depends
on the success of the series.

But, frankly, I don't see a big jump in market share for the Euro
companies just because their bikes might actually be seen on TV in DMG
unless they start backing it with major media investments. I think that
Aprilla, KTM, Triumph, or BMW or whoever can, today, right now, sponsor
an AMA event, by program space, and run ads on TV with the race
broadcasts, even if their bikes aren't running in the race. The
demographic is already watching the race.

Basically, I don't think the Euro companies need to actually field a
team, in ANY series, to leverage the media opportunities racing provides
today. Can't complain about Suzuki winning a race that your bike isn't
in. Sell a cruiser, the KTM Adventure, or some other non-race bike.

Hell, Miller was sponsored by some skin care thing...they didn't race
anything!

So, anyway, kind of rambling.

I don't know what's going to happen. I'm cynical about the whole thing,
and even if we went '09 AMA rules, with the current teams, even the
current classes, the whole thing has left such a bad taste in my mouth,
I don't know why I should patronize this new organization at all.
They're doing nothing to earn it in my book.


Regards,

Will Hartung

 

Pirelli spec tyres everywhere? I was thinking about BSB wild cards in
the UK WSB rounds (and WSB wild cards in BSB rounds) but of course the
USA has a different tyre manufacturer for it's one tyre supplier.

For 2009 and 2010, it's not just the 1098R. But also the Aprilia RSV4
and KTM RC8. The simple solution to the 1098R is to push up the
homologation numbers. Which is happening in WSB. Which probably means a
1098SP with price and components pitched half way between the S and R.
But Ducati's a big company now and should Aprilia and KTM be held to the
same standard? Clearly, Ducati will produce a bike to the rules and do
their damndest (like Honda) to get the rules adjusted to their bike. But
one of the problems in SBK has always been how to deal with the smaller
factories.

 

I think before giving not enough/too much credit to any one group, or
voice you might want to consider how hard fuel prices are impacting
every aspect of our economy. I'm sure DMG knows, or will have a pretty
good idea after this evening..

http://www.local6.com/news/16789067/detail.html

There was quite a discussion back at Daytona about how DMG would
manifest themselves and their new way, with us old timer's split on
whether they'd ease US racing into their vision, or force feed it. Now
it looks like maybe they're unwilling to go the draconian route,(at
this time) though I don't believe it has much to do with anything
beyond the economy, as every penny gas rises removes $'s from the
equation and running die-hard folks off at this time with their new
vision isn't fiscally smart and when it comes to $'s the guys aren't
anything, but smart..

Is the Nip OEM war over? Oh hell no! It looks it's just on the back
burner for a while, that's all..

IF, and it's a pretty big if right now, they actually do proceed with a
WSB thing I'd expect something to go, be it ST, or most likely the
SStock type litres, as there just isn't enough time in the weekend, or
on Sunday for that matter...

Divide and conquer, at it's finest too..

I think they want only DSB on Sunday, I also believe they'll eventually
(if not sooner) make those races 100 miles, or so, with at least one
pit stop too..

See above..

No, they've been too busy covering their collective asses and trying
figure out this new regime, the latter I can understand, the former, I
do not..

I wouldn't go that far at all..

Though I would not bet against that..

"Someone" said it's best to wait until a rule book is printed and that
most of what we see and read until then is posturing and little more..

The MIC thing was a bluff, plain and simple, at least I hope it was,
because the last thing any of us should want is some west coast Jap SB
series and all the blowback that will come from that..

Let's review. Money and hammers? If hammers means influence at every
venue in this country and money meaning, well, boatloads of buck$, I
dunno 'bout you, but I'm thinkin' I'm going with the rich carpenter.
And speaking of rich, when is France gonna write the check, I mean
c'mon, it's been what, 4 month's? Time to pony up some bucks I would
think...

You see, that's the part I don't get, especially from someone that
professes love for the sport..

Shit, you're just dreamin' again, damn, and I thought you were
conscious, oh well...


I hope everyone had a safe and fun 4th (Limey azzkickin' holiday) I'm
pretty sure we did, at least AFAIK we didn't burn anything down and no
one went to the ER, or, more importantly, has called about bail...

 

Just saying is all. And those Pirellis really aren't as bad as they
were. ISTR Pirelli won Daytona 200 this year (not superbike of course)?
Or am I imagining that?

Hmmm. I don't know the answer to that. When the numbers increase to 3000
in a year, is the old homologation at 150, 500, 1000 or whatever still
valid?

KTM possibly on total numbers, probably not on total revenue. Although
they are expanding fast and if they haven't already passed Ducati on
world sales they may well soon.

Aprilia as a factory in it's own right, or as part of Piaggio? Scooters
or just road motorcycles?

Yes. And Honda is the uncontested master at manipulating the regulatory
bodies and dominating the MSMA.

It's just another aspect of how difficult it is to frame rules for a
road bike based series. If you push up the homologation numbers
requirement, especially if you make it regional, you make it hard for a
smaller, new manufacturer or new model to be eligible. So, it might be
good for the series and the entertainment if, say, KTM ran a factory
RC8. But it may be completely unreasonable to ask KTM to register 1000
of them in the USA whereas Honda might well register 10 times that in
total number of Fireblades. But if you make concessions for the smaller
models, the smaller factories will exploit that.

BTW. Do DGM, really need the factories to homologate the bikes? How does
that work exactly?

 

(typing slow, just for you)
I imagine DMG knew, or at least expected to take a hit with the
"purist's" on their DSB only thrust and they probably thought they
could lessen the pain at the gate with new fans. You with me? Okay, now
comes a shit box economy with fuel prices thru the roof and still
climbing, so it isn't very $mart to run off the die-hard fans in the
midst of a recession, is it? Remember, these guys have to sell this
product to tracks and IIRC track guys like to see folks coming thru
their gates and while there might be a few new people, it's those old
ones that are bankable. So, maybe it's not a good idea to run them off
right now, get my drift?

Maybe had you'd been a little less busy manufacturing venom and
actually paying attention you would've noticed when I brought the
economy angile up the first few times, but apparently you were too busy
on some whacky-ass nazi racist rant to notice, though to me it's just
another example of you missing important pieces of the puzzle because
you were running around ala Chicken Little..

A war of control, a long overdue one at that. Heh, in reality that
war's probably already over, and it's what the peace is going to look
like that's really the question..

You can picture what you want, I think they did a remarkable job
splitting a block that really had never split before and regardless
whether you, or I like the eventual outcome, it's hard for me not to
give kudo's on what looks like a well played gem..

One would sure think so, but I'll be dammed if I can come up with much
more at this time..

Wait a second, didn't they go out west just to do that? If what I read
was half-way correct they were pretty much shown the door by everyone,
but Yam. So, saying they haven't reached out is BS..

Speak for yourself..

Good, or bad, no matter, it's a thing I have absolutely no control
over. So why get all bent out of shape?

It most certainly was not! You're the Google guy, aren't you? Go check
if you want just be careful reading that stuff, you might actually
learn something..

And not just by them either, EVERYBODY has something to lose, or gain
in this deal, that you either refuse, or are unable to see that amazes
me..

I don't know if blame's the word I would use, but I do feel they're a
little tardy..
The alternative series is a pipe dream and it's hard for me not to
think that if DMG is willing to spend the money their vision will be
the way of the future. My question at this point(economy) is if they
see enough return, or how quickly that return comes to justify spending
a boatload of bucks to bring US M/C racing into the "bigs."

Let's review, okay? If, by some wild ass chance there was to be another
series it would consist of what, 3 Japanese OEM's, right? And it would
be centered on the west coast, right? Hence the west coast Jap SB
series. I dunno what they call that out there, but around here it's
called accuracy without a bunch of bullshit!

Somebody needs to pinch you, or somethin', 'cause you're definitely
dreamin'! Jeeze, do you make this shit up yourself, dood, get real...

You really, really need to rethink that..

The economy could be dragging AMA's payday down in the toilet as it
goes, but 120+ days to close this deal? Hmm, France handshake or no, if
I were the Dinger I'd prolly be a little nervous of late..

I think you might need to re-evaluate what exactly the old AMA
Proracing was, as using it for foundation to structure such an analogy
is the same as building a house of cards..

Chicken kick if I recall correctly, shame too. Shame that camera was
right there..

Really? Tell me somethin' straight okay? No bullshit, you equate what
happened to Edmondson the same as (yer boi) Fania getting a well
deserved, though unfortunately very public bitch kick? I mean, that
would soo over the top whacky and this on a bar you've previously set
so high! WOW!!!

Yada, yada, yada.. What exactly are you tryin' to tell me here?

We can conclude? Let me tell you somethin' Bubba, "We" don't come to
conclusion's just from what's read on the web, obviously "you" do,
however, "I" try pretty hard not to. Heheh, good thing too, otherwise
I'd have shined your sorry ass on years ago...

 

Or DGM could just say if it looks like a duck, we say it is a duck. So
they say a Buell 1125R is allowed to race and they obtain one copy to
use as a reference. How does anyone challenge that? Or they could piggy
back onto the FIM homologation by saying bikes can only race if the same
model has been homologated by them. ISTM the problem is not in stating
the models, it's with comparing the race bike with some standard after
the race.

But then haven't DGM also said that there would be a homologated race
kit and race parts and it's never been clear exactly who would produce
those and how they would be approved.

 

Julian Bond asks:

No, you're not imagining that. They won in '07 with Rapp, then
again in '08 with Davies though Davies finished second on
track behind an illegal Honda that Hayes was riding .


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

Yes, they won in '07 and '08 much like Cory West got 3rd in SSport
instead of Blake Young at Miller. A win is a win, and the record books
don't like, but, there were "circumstances".

All of the Hondas imploded in both races, save for Hayes disqualified
Honda this year. The Hondas have dominated FX the past two years, over
the Attack team.

Now whether that's because they run Hondas, or because they run Dunlops,
I don't think it's fair to say. But, in any case, whatever they're
doing, the Pirelli's aren't able to close the gap.

In SStock, the Pirelli's actually seem to make a good fight of it.
Taking a close second at Daytona, really distant 3rd (20s down) in
Barber, close 3rd at Fontana, and they won at Road America.

But that's the only series we see much of them in, at least at the top
end of the bracket.

Regards,

Will Hartung

 

Perhaps the most interesting perspective is that of Geoff May having
switched from Emgo/Pirelli to Jordan/Dunlop this year. No one will
ask him straight out on TV but the tidbits he's dropped make me think
the Pirelli's are very good for the first third or so of the race, but
they drop off significantly for the last third whereas the Dunlops
keep sticking. That would seem to jive with the results of the past
couple years where the Emgo guys were always battling hard at the
front in the beginning but were rarely around at the end.

 

I'm saying they're smart when it comes to making money and with our
economy in full-on nosedive I can understand why they may have backed
off a little, *IF* in fact that's what the rumored WSB package is
about..

I recall saying three things in particular, 1. They own it and will do
as they see fit. 2. Don't get all worked up until you see a rule book
and thirdly, hold on, it's gonna be a rocky ride and as yet I haven't
seen, or heard ANYTHING to alter that view..

Monopoly's in general suk ass, though sometimes things are sooo screwed
up it takes a firm hand to clean up and clean out the crap that's been
allowed to pile-up over the years..

Oh really? You might want to check WSB and it's recent history..

Classic stuff too..

So, they get what they want and still aren't happy? I look for somebody
not to like it and still want the original '09 rules, then it'll be
very interesting to see if DMG allows it. My take? Nada..

Maybe they "don't even care" beyond DSB and ST..

Then why did they bother making the trip? Hell, they could've Fed Ex'd
their DSB rules and been done with 'um..

WTF, you guys don't have phones and e-mail out there? I'm pretty sure
they do on Speedway Blvd..

Yeah, the table and all the shit they stack on it too..

Ah yes, the harbingers of doom, luv those guys.. So fuckin' what??

Reality my friend, you might want to check it out sometime..

There's nothing real as yet, it's ALL posturing!

You know me, always polite..

Umm, because you'd have to be high to really believe it's possible?

Influence is a lot like money, it's only bad when you don't have any
and trust me on this, they're not gonna run out of either! As far as
Speed goes, they may have a much larger fish on the hook, at least
that's a recent rumor..

Heh, now that I'd pay to see!

Can I get a hit of whatever it is you've got in that pipe? It must be
the good shit!

Well, there ya' go..

That was MY feelings at Daytona, there were others that believed DMG
would just throw down their vision and say, "our way, or the hi-way"
and be done with it..

When it comes to racing in this country, NO ONE can do what these guys
are capable of. That's not an endorsement Mark, it's a fact of life..

Miller runs Nascar and Grand Am, do you think for one second he'd
jeopardize those paydays for some Jap OEM's? I do not. 'Guna? Who
knows..

Heh, not as long as the one we're hopefully fixin' to end on Nov.. (I
didn't believe it was possible to despise an administration more than
Nixon's, but these creep's are exponentially worse..)

WTF have they done? Besides all the hot air (on all sides) I haven't
seen them do much beyond DQ'ing a few guys. For Christ's sake, give 'um
some time and I'm fairly sure you'll find legitimate reasons to hate
them..

Abrams, a Honda shill, big whoop there, NOT!!

'Ya know what? I'm likin' the guy more and more all the time!

Too tired..

You mean the WORLD CENTER OF RACING? (ouch!;-)

A campfire down here in July? Not a chance, waaaay too many 'skeetrz...

 

Yup. That's what I was thinking of. And I don't understand how it could
work or be enforced. Even with something as simple as brake pads.