Arnold 2008???

Larry xlax Lovisone · Nov 29, 2004

You got a lot

of lefties living in the Republic of California posting here.
Click to expand...

Now... I'm a lefty???

Larry L
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Road Glidin' Don · Nov 29, 2004

Yep, but it dodged the basic point that the founding fathers
whilst they may have believed in god did NOT want the
government messing with religion in anyway nor did the want
religion to influence gravely the running of the United
States of America. They understood and even stated that it
was a slippery slope. Any person who doesn't understand that
is a delusional fool. No laws should EVER be based on
religion period. Damn you people are fucking THICK! Don't
like it? Tough shit KF me the ESAD because you are NOT what
makes America.
Click to expand...

Actually, the article didn't seem to dodge those issues at all. In
fact, it dealt with them head-on. True, the historical evidence ran
contrary to what you want to be the case but, if then you should blame
your Founding Fathers for saying things like:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political
prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports....And
let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be
maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to
expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious
principles." (Washington)

(BTW, that quote is astonishingly prophetic, isn't it? - thinking of
the discussion about the evils of Communism, occurring in another
thread... I'm starting to really like those founding-father guys!

Now... although I know you probably don't like that sentiment of
Washington's, I sure don't think anybody has to apologise for putting
it out. The quote provides an important insight into the man's
thinking.

--
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Rich · Nov 29, 2004

Road said:

Thanks. That was an interesting and informative read.

--
Click to expand...

I'd like to add my thanks and my agreement.

Rich, Urban Biker

Rich · Nov 29, 2004

Larry said:

You got a lot

Now... I'm a lefty???

Larry L
Click to expand...

In a clutch. ;-}

Rich, Urban Biker

JFH · Nov 29, 2004

"Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted
to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

James Madison

"We, the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
courts--not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who
pervert the Constitution--Abraham Lincoln

"The preachers dread the advance of science as witches do the approach
of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions
of the duperies on which they live." -- Thomas Jefferson

"A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country
with his religion and destroy them under color of law."

Benjamin Franklin

John R Pierce · Nov 29, 2004

Unfortunately, people will continue to claim that the US was founded on
Christian principles irregardless of the facts against them.
Click to expand...

facts are the antithesis of faith.

Odinn · Nov 29, 2004

Road said:

Actually, the article didn't seem to dodge those issues at all. In
fact, it dealt with them head-on. True, the historical evidence ran
contrary to what you want to be the case but, if then you should blame
your Founding Fathers for saying things like:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political
prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports....And
let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be
maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to
expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious
principles." (Washington)

(BTW, that quote is astonishingly prophetic, isn't it? - thinking of
the discussion about the evils of Communism, occurring in another
thread... I'm starting to really like those founding-father guys!

Now... although I know you probably don't like that sentiment of
Washington's, I sure don't think anybody has to apologise for putting
it out. The quote provides an important insight into the man's
thinking.
Click to expand...

Again, you miss Washington's statement at the Treaty of Tripoli.
"The United States is in no manner founded on Christian principle."

Allowing religion to exist and set moral foundations doesn't mean that
the country was based on those principles.

--
Odinn

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rot13 to reply

Keith Schiffner · Nov 30, 2004

Charles Soto said:

Odinn said:

John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most
fatal example
of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has
preserved--the
Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has
produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales,
legaends, hae
been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation
that have made
them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John
Adams in a letter
to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816,
_2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A.
Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity. Nowhere
in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds,
Confessions, Oaths,
Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery
that we find in
Christianity." --John Adams

Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin
Franklin,
_Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of
reason."--Benjamin
Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite
Father, expects
or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is
even infinitely
above it." -- Benjamin Franklin,
_Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good
works ... I mean
real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing
... or making
long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments
despised by wise
men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." --
Benjamin Franklin
, _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the
present sects of
Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns
been persecutors
and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians
thought
persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it
on one another.
The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed
persecution on the
Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found
it wrong in
Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England)
and in New
England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support
itself; and when it
does not support itself, and God does not take care to
support it so
that its professors are obliged to call for help of the
civil power,
'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." --
Benjamin Franklin,
_2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire,
promote, or
confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and
make us unfriendly
to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

James Madison

"Who does not see that the same authority which can
establish
Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may
establish with
the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in
exclusion of all
other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_
and_Remonstrance, addressed
to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal
establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits?
More or less, in
all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance
and servility
in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and
persecution." -- James
Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance,
_2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by
James A. Haught

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance
and all of which
facilitates the execution of mischievous projects.
Religious bondage
shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every
noble
enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison,
_2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed,
as every past
one has done, in showing that religion and Government
will both exist in
greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James
Madison in a
letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the
line of
separation between the rights of religion and the Civil
authority with
such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential
points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the
other, or to a
corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best
be guarded
against by an entire abstinence of the Government from
interference in
any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving
public order, and
protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal
rights by
others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious
Liberty", edited by
Robert S. Alley, ISBN pp 237-238

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like
an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs
its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry,
and the morality
of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have
been manifestly
increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE
STATE."--James
Madison

Thomas Paine

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by
attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)." -- Thomas Paine

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous
debaucheries, the
cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting
vindictiveness with which
more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more
consistent that we
call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a
history of
wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize
[hu]mankind." --
Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in
religion is the
worst."--Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish
Church, by the
Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church,
by the
Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My
own mind is my
own Church."--Thomas Paine,
_Excerpts_from_The_Age_of_Reason:_Selected_Writings_of_Thomas_
Paine_,
edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation
Publishing Co,
1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish,
Christian, or
Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set
up to terrify
and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and
profit."--Thomas Paine,
_The_Age_of_Reason

"The adulterous connection between church and
state."--Thomas Paine,
from _The_Age_of_Reason_

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion;
but it is
always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions,
or religions
established by law."--Thomas Paine, _The_Rights_of_Man_,
1791, ed P.S.
Foner, 1945

"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the
Christian
Religion. It is free from all those invented and
torturing articles that
shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which
the Christian
religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely
simple. It believes
in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine,
_Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"As priestcraft was always the enemy of knowledge,
because priestcraft
supports itself by keeping people in delusion and
ignorance, it was
consistent with its policy to make the acquisition of
knowledge a real
sin."--Thomas Paine,
_Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian
system."--Thomas
Paine, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught
Click to expand...

You should carve these on a big stone monument and truck
it around the
country! Nah, that's a stupid idea only an inbred hick
would attempt!

Charles
Click to expand...

Hey bubba! Bubba Charles...you gots a compressor and an air
chisel I could borrow? Gots a bit of work to do...

--
Nefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree
Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt
jewelry once in a while.
Dum vivimus, vivamus
<3 )3~~ <3 )3~~ <3 )3~ <3 )3~

Road Glidin' Don · Nov 30, 2004

Again, you miss Washington's statement at the Treaty of Tripoli.
"The United States is in no manner founded on Christian principle."

Allowing religion to exist and set moral foundations doesn't mean that
the country was based on those principles.
Click to expand...

No problem. I can agree with both of Washington's statements.

Can you?

--
Instead of swerving, I should have been reloading
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Keith Schiffner · Nov 30, 2004

Charles Soto said:

Shownuff! Got some big 'ol rocks?

Charles
Click to expand...

<looks out the west picture window>

Yep the damn rocky mountains are STILL there...along with
Glacier National Park

</looks out the west picture window>

You could say so...want i should send a few pictures?

--
Nefarious Necrologist 42nd Degree
Some people ride, some just like to show off their butt
jewelry once in a while.
Dum vivimus, vivamus
<3 )3~~ <3 )3~~ <3 )3~ <3 )3~

bowman · Nov 30, 2004

Charles said:

Shownuff! Got some big 'ol rocks?
Click to expand...

Unlike Austin, we got a rock or two in Montana. To say nothing of the next 2
or 3 months are going to suck as far as two wheeled travel goes.

Odinn · Nov 30, 2004

Road said:

No problem. I can agree with both of Washington's statements.

Can you?
Click to expand...

Yes, I can, because his statement doesn't say that Christian religion is
to set the moral foundations, but religions as a whole, which includes
ALL religions.

--
Odinn

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rot13 to reply

Odinn · Nov 30, 2004

Charles said:

You should carve these on a big stone monument and truck it around the
country! Nah, that's a stupid idea only an inbred hick would attempt!

Charles
Click to expand...

Wait a minute now, I am an inbred hick, and I wouldn't attempt that.

--
Odinn

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rot13 to reply

Alan Moore · Dec 1, 2004

I'm going to buy one. The next Xtian who tries to reason with me about gay
marriage will get a demonstration of how they work. (Now I need to find some SCA
web sites with downloadable movies.)
Click to expand...

Your local community college probably has a fencing course available.
The charge is purely nominal, and with the reflexes and muscles you've
got from hockey, you should do pretty well.

Now, try to find a place you can learn the proper technique for
fighting with an axe...

Al Moore
DoD 734

Road Glidin' Don · Dec 1, 2004

Don, you ignorant slut! Nothing in that quote indicates a predilection
for Xtian government. Keith and I could give fuckall about personal
piety. We just want to keep the damn god business out of my government,
as did the founding white slaveowners (and a few other guys without
slaves, mostly from blue states).
Click to expand...

Charles, when was the last time I resorted to calling you names when I
disagreed with you?

--
Instead of swerving, I should have been reloading
(remove _NO_SPAM_ to reply)

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Guest · Dec 1, 2004

Don, you ignorant slut! Nothing in that quote indicates a predilection
for Xtian government. Keith and I could give fuckall about personal
piety. We just want to keep the damn god business out of my government,
as did the founding white slaveowners (and a few other guys without
slaves, mostly from blue states).

Charles
Click to expand...

So much for tolerance aye Charlie? BTW,What are you doing getting
ready for the next election with the Kerry donations? Well like my
Thanksgiving turkey I ate last week stick a fork in him the man is
done. Enjoy the next four years and if it makes you feel better
more Americans disagree with you and would agree with Don. Pretty
amazing Don being from Canada and all. Yep your guy lost the election
while my guy won.
Regards
Michael H. Fell

Guest · Dec 2, 2004

No place important, just the Constitution. Why do you ask?
Click to expand...

Show me.

Regards
Michael H. Fell

Guest · Dec 2, 2004

IOW, you're saying they would have supported your freedom of religion as
long as it was the "correct" religion...
Click to expand...

Nope. They tried that in England. Not how it works.

Regards
Michael H. Fell

Guest · Dec 2, 2004

The separation of church and state is not in the First Amendment per se.
Click to expand...

It is NOT in the first amendment period end of story.

Its a long held doctrine. When this nation was founded all of the countries
in Europe had a state church (some still do). That had caused a lot of
baggage over time. Not just the English Calvinists (the Puritans), but
French Huguenots, and the Quakers had all come to America looking for the
freedom to worship. The goal of the first amendment was to insure that
people could worship as they saw fit.
Click to expand...

And not get killed if the process ala England.

The clear historical presumption was
that it was Christian worship.
Click to expand...

At that time 96% of Americas population was Christian. My guess is if
we had a Hindu population they would have been able to practice their
religion as well. The same goes for the Atheists. Now if these
same people moved over to England at that time and tried this they
would have been killed. You gotta love the USA. Land of the free.
Lets hope it stays that way.

For example, non-denominational prayer have
historically been Christian non-denominational (vice Jewish, Islam, Baha'i,
Wicca, Hindu...). In more recent times the first amendment has been
interpreted to mean that freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.
The vast majority of the founding fathers (Jefferson being the primary odd
man out) would be aghast at how far we have moved from their world view and
the importance of religion in schools and public life.
Click to expand...

Very true. These men are spinning in their graves.

Then again, a lot of
other things have changed since then as well.
Click to expand...

Yea and for the worse.

Like my other posts in this
thread I am *not* taking a position, but pointing out a few facts.
Click to expand...

And you did a fine job at that

Regards
Michael H. Fell

Arnold 2008???

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