Are soldiers murderers?

I think everyone agrees with you Nev. If a person has murdered (s)he's a
murderer.

 

">> They not a murderer until they're found guilty of murder.

So please explain how you decide a person has comitted murder before a court
has found him guilty of being a murderer

Capt. A. L..

 

But who is it that detirmines that the homicide wasn't justifiable if not
the court?
There are many cases in which the taking of life is not murder, some are
clear cut many are grey.
So how do you detirmine that the "person who got away with it" is a murderer
and not guilty of a lesser offence or perhaps an inocent victim

Lets take an example of a wife who kills her sleeping husband in cold blood
after years of substanciated abuse. Charger with murder but later found not
guilty by the court. If she however disposes of the body and is never
charged is she a murderer? I say not. I maintain that in the case of
murder it is a court that decides. The offence of speeding is much more
black and white, either you were or you weren't regardless of the courts,
murder's not so clear cut..

Capt. A. L.

 

All Nev does in here is lead us on but often his arguements fail and I'm
happy to engage him if I believe he's wrong
Plus I'm not too intellectual so I'll stick to legal aspects, they're easier
to argue.

Yes quite true. Until they're convicted they will remain "alleged
murderers"

Capt. A. L.

 

So your problem is, every time you type "murderer" what you actually
mean is "convicted murderer", but everyone is too polite to point it
out to you.

Nev..

 

So your problem is, every time you type "murderer" what you actually
mean is "convicted murderer", but everyone is too polite to point it
out to you.



Nothing polite about you eh Nev.

Until a person is convicited he is not a murderer. He may be an alledged
murderer wich is intirley different until and unless he is convicited after
which he becomes a murderer. If he subsequently wins on appeal he is no
longer a murderer. All detirmined by a court of law.

Capt. A. L...

 

Leading him on? Not a chance! I am definitely referring to murder as
defined in law.

Nev..

 

But wait, by your own definition (above) if they were not-murderer
prior to conviction, then they were convicted and became a murderer,
and then they won an appeal against the murder charge, that would
surely make them an EX-murderer, not a not-murderer.

Nev..

 

But wait, by your own definition (above) if they were not-murderer
prior to conviction, then they were convicted and became a murderer,
and then they won an appeal against the murder charge, that would
surely make them an EX-murderer, not a not-murderer.

You seem to running out of valid points now Nev and relaying on semantics.

You're the only person thus far who has used the term "not murderer"

The court decides that they're no longer a murderer if and when they win on
appeal. Possiably it decides that they were never a murderer at all as the
previous decision was in error. I'm not sure about that . It is however only
for the court to decide if they are a murderer and if it decides so then
only the court can decide that they are no longer or perhaps that they never
were a murderer.

I can't see any situation where a person could be an Ex murderer. Either
you are or you aren't which could change depending on the decision of the
court.

Try harder please

Capt. A. L.

 

So you believe that murder, justifiable homicide, self defence,
manslaughter, accidental death, culpable driving, etc are all equal
until determined otherwise by a court? So how does the prosecution
decide which charge to allege? You replied to someone else that you
were sticking to legal definitions, so you should have a definition for
each of the above variations of death by another, and they should all be
unique. Write them all on a piece of paper. Now cross out all the
others which are not murder. Now you have a definition of murder, so
anyone who commits a crime which fits that definition is a murderer,
regardless of conviction. If they lie and convince a court they are not
guilty of murder they are a murderer AND a liar, but telling a lie does
not change the crime, only the verdict.

Nev..
'07 XB12X
'08 DL1000K8

 

murder // n. & v.
n.
1 the unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by another (cf.
manslaughter).
2 colloq. an unpleasant, troublesome, or dangerous state of affairs (it
was murder here on Saturday).
v.tr.
1 kill (a human being) unlawfully, esp. wickedly or inhumanly.
2 Law kill (a human being) unlawfully with a premeditated motive.
3 colloq. a utterly defeat. b spoil by a bad performance,
mispronunciation, etc. (murdered the soliloquy in the second act).

 

I pushed the wrong button and posted this to you instead of the group, sorry
about that. I'm not trying to debate outside this forum simply a button
user error

 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Benson" <>
To: "F Murtz" <>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: Are soldiers murderers?


Yes as stated in 1 unlawful premeditated killing

The court detirmines if it is unlawful, after hearing arguments from the
prosecution and the defense.

Capt. A. L.

 

Murder is murder until the law says some murders are not murders.

 

Murder is defined basically as "The unlawful killing of one human by
another, especially with premeditated malice.".

In order for that act to be defined as 'unlawful' it needs to be first
determined that the act was against the law.

Hence the need for a court ruling (wouldn't have to be a court case
against a person though, it could be a coroners verdict).

Before that point it would be a 'death' and a suspected homicide.


G-S

 

No, under such a definition the person is "alleged to have been
murdered" and not merely 'killed'.


G-S

 

It's an undefined state, the person may or may not actually be a
murderer and that isn't determined until the court/jury determine that.

The state of being a murderer isn't defined by the act of killing
someone, rather it's defined by the verdict.


G-S

 

Nothing except that it's incorrect


G-S

 

You can't use the term convicted murderer, it is a nonsense term like
saying ATM Machine.

The term murderer implies already convicted.


G-S

 

So, Oh Righteous One, the question "Have they caught the murderer
yet?" is not acceptable?


=================

Onya bike

Gerry