Another wonderful obit

And first-rate Polish ones. Read the history - Poland *had* a large and
fairly effective army. But they were (largely) fighting with WW1-era
tactics.

Rubbish. I don't know where you get your facts but I'd change if I were
you..

Army Group C (diversionary - faced the Maginot line) - 19 Divisions
(not Blitzkrieg).
Army Group B (attacked Holland & Belgium - most definately
blitzkrieg) - 30 Divisions (including 3 armoured divisions)
Army Group A (attacked via Ardennes and most definately Blitzkrieg) -
45 divisions (including 7 armoured divisions)
3200+ combat aircraft.

So thats 75 divisions using Blitzkrieg (which doesn't only involve
Panzer Divisions BTW - it a combined arms operation that uses
*Mechanised* divisions of both infantry *and* Panzers.) A total of
about 3 million soldiers.

And the BEF? 10 Divisions plus a tank brigade. Total allied soldiers
were about 3.3 million but most of these were ill-trained and prepared
conscripts. The only mostly-professional army was the BEF. And of that
3.3 million about 50% were fortress-divisions (ie tied down in immobile
fortifications). And total combat aircraft 2100 (ish) - most of which
were a generation behind the Luftwaffe (apart from the British
Hurricanes and Spitfires - but the British only had 680 combat aircraft
in France). Likewise the tanks used (with
the notable exception of the Matilda II - which was a good tank but
much slower than the German ones) were an iteration of technology
behind the German ones.

Rubbish. Have you ever heard the term *Motorised* Division?

BEF wasn't particularly mobile. Especially not when compared with the
German Motorised Divisions. Which is why some of the force (mixed with
retreating French forces) made several very hard-fought stands to allow
the rest to get to the coast. And don't forget - they were being
attacked on two fronts (Army Group B and C).

The troops were not there for a stronger attack.

Rubbish. Most historians believe that defeat was inevitable - arising
mostly from the French tactics, morale and strategy. And don't forget
that both Britain and France were heavily affected by the Great
Depression (Germany less so).

Phil

 

And how long do you think the northern airbases would have lasted under
attacks from planes based in Holland, Denmark and Norway?

Availability of pilots. Most of whom were on the brink of exhaustion
and combat-shock.

Planes are useless without pilots. And there was a critical shortage of
trained and combat-ready pilots.

Err - they were. Sure - they were training more but they were utterly
green. And lasted a very short time against the more experienced
Luftwaffe pilots.

No - your assertion that "they never got close to destroying Fighter
Command" is utter rubbish.

The Ialians were their allies long before they formally declared war on
the Allies. And they had a military-exchange program with Japan long
before then too.

We are not talking about Nov 1940.. We are talking about early 1940.

Huh? So if the Luftwaffe *had* suceeded in forcing the RAF out of
Southern England they *would* have had air superiority. And could have
used mass-attacks against shipping which would have (combined with what
parts of the Kriegsmarine were available) been able to set up a
corridor for an invasion fleet.

So then why would you expect BEF to be bigger?

But Britain didn't formally declare war until after Germany had attacked
(and overrun) Poland.

Phil.

 

I'd call having as little as ~300 fighters available to defend the
entire coastline damn close. That's how low the RAF fighting force had
got in the worst period of the BoB.

Luckily for us, Dowding was being fed ULTRA, so he knew from Goering and
others what the tactics were and husbanded his resources, sending up
handfuls of fighters to cause as much damage as possible in hit and run
attacks against the bomber streams. This tactic was remarkably
effective, often disrupting bomb aiming and scattering flights of
bombers as well as bringing several down on each sortie.

Utter cobblers, see above. If the attacks had continued on the airfields
of Southern Command for just another fortnight we'd have been fucked.

Dowding has been unfairly pilloried for his handling of the BoB, when
his critics, who included Kieth Park and Leigh-Mallory should have known
better. KP and LM didn't know anything about ULTRA, so were just blowing
smoke out of their arses, and imo, were a pair of back-stabbing
bastards.

'Some', is not the same as 'enough'. If the wiping out of Southern
Command had succeeded, there would have been very little the RAF could
have done to prevent an invasion. The RN ships would have formed a set
of lovely inviting targets for the Luftwaffe and simply been sunk where
they were.

Bollocks.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"A scone and tea at half past three
Makes the day a little brighter
Keep your cakes and fancy tarts
And stick them up your shiter."

 

But if they had had air superiority they could use massed saturation
bombing to destroy both ships at sea and ships in port.

It wouldn't have taken them long to get one. They could have easily got
the designs from Japan.

Stukas were able to target stuff moving a lot faster than that on
roads..

No. They didn't buy arms because a) the various treaties didn't permit
it, b) they didn't really have the money (the Great Depression was
still on) and c) why should they? Britain was still one of the premier
engineering centres in the world.

Rubbish. The best tank that the British had (and the only one capable
of surviving a German attack) was the Matilda II. And that had a top
speed of about half compared to the standard German battle tank.

Phil

 

You'll find that most of it is down to insecurity on the part of the
Brits/Americans, whatever. When you look at the 'style de vie' that we
enjoy here in France, it's no surprise that France was until this year the
most visited tourist destination on earth.

Of course, it _could_ be down to our svelte, self-confident women, who
contrast with the average Englishwoman's chronic PMT, cellulite and thick
ankles.

D.

--
des
French Biking Vocabulary: http://minilien.fr/a0kg0p

'Kaiser: "Can you prove to me the existence of G-d?"
Bismarck: "The Jews, your Majesty. The Jews"'

 

Like this typical Parisienne?
http://www.angelo.edu/faculty/rprestia/1301/images/IN476Absint.jpg

 

I'm afraid to click.

D.

--
des
French Biking Vocabulary: http://minilien.fr/a0kg0p

We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs; we have no
place to go' (Golda Meir)

 

Since those planes would have been unescorted bombers, quite a long
time. Unescorted bombers over England didn't tend to survive long.

Hence the plan to rest and train them out of Luftwaffe fighter range.

The plan was to pull back if 11 Group got down to 50% strength, since
they never implemented the plan, it's reasonable to assume 11 Group
didn't get that low. There was also the other three Groups to
consider, they were smaller than 11 which itself made up 50% of
Fighter Command so, if 11 Group had got down to 50% strength, Fighter
Command would be at 75% strength overall.

< 75% strength is not "destroyed" in my book.

Well *you* were talking about Taranto which occured in Nov, I was
talking about after Dunkirk (i.e. June 1940 onwards.), neither of us
was talking about early 1940 so I don't know what gave you that idea.

No, if you scroll back up a bit, you'll find that I described two
scenarios, one which involved the German's having air superiority, one
without. Your reply, quoted above, was in response to the first of
these.

As I thought I'd explained, the Luftwaffe would *not* stop the RN in
1940 and the parts of the Kriegsmarine available wouldn't do enough
either.

You seem to be concentrating here on what historically happened
whereas I'm suggesting it could have been done differently. i.e. more
funding and a clearer directive on what the Army was going to achieve
in the coming war.

Yes but she *thought* she *might* have to do so before that. Things
just didn't play out that way.

Cheers,

John

 

No, 11 Group may have had to retreat north when it reached 50%
strength at which point Fighter Command would have been at 75%
strength. 75% is not "fucked"

Really, what do you think Western, Midland and Northern Commands
(otherwise known as 10, 12 and 13 Groups) would be doing ?

Not by the Luftwaffe in 1940. They had no working aerial torpedoes and
little chance of hitting something like a moving destroyer with bombs.
(and unless they got *very* lucky, their bombs wouldn't do anything to
a battleship other than burn the paint.)

Cheers,

John

 

Best not to. Probably infected.

 

Yes, but since it got canned in 1932 I don't see how it's relevant to
re-armament from 1936 onwards.

Which is the time frame I'm talking about.

Which is my point. It didn't happen earlier but it could and should
have given the experience of WWI

Cheers,

John

 

75% my arse. A large part of that 75% was utterly knackered and awaiting
repair.

Sitting around waiting for bits, as I said. When they were pulled back
for a rest, most of the pilots were utterly exhausted, the planes were
in dire need of refit and/or replacement and each unit was seriously
under strength.

Absolute arse. The Luftwaffe had plenty of experienced bomber pilots -
all it takes is a few hits and the RN in the Channel is nothing but a
sunken scrapyard. When you have 3000 bombers, coming in waves at you,
some are bound to hit some ships.

Do you have a fucking clue about what you're on about?
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"A scone and tea at half past three
Makes the day a little brighter
Keep your cakes and fancy tarts
And stick them up your shiter."

 

The pilots of 10, 12 and 13 Groups weren't exhausted as they hadn't
borne the brunt of the attack. Yes, their squadrons were understrength
but, together, they still added up to 50% of Fighter Command

Not experienced at hitting moving ships like destroyers, they didn't.

Nope, especially not RN battleships. A 1,000lb HE bomb is nothing to
an armoured deck designed to withstand 15" AP shells

The Luftwaffe didn't *have* 3,000 bombers after the BoB

Not enough to stop the RN

Yes, but your comment about 3,000 bombers is making me think that you
don't

Cheers,

John

 

<Ba-ding!>

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4442/is_200708/ai_n19433690/pg_1

page two is interesting.

Gen Billy Mitchell demonstrated the effectiveness of dive-bombers
against battleships in the 20s. A handful of planes sunk a couple of old
WW1 battleships and severely ruffled a few Naval feathers.

FFS, even the Condor managed to sink an impressive amount of Allied
shipping and it was big and slow.


--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"A scone and tea at half past three
Makes the day a little brighter
Keep your cakes and fancy tarts
And stick them up your shiter."

 

More rolling off the production lines all the time... do you have any
idea of the massive war production capacity under the Nazis? They didn't
lose most of their 3000 during the BoB, they were still in a fairly
healthy state, materielly, although the crews were suffering a bit.

Arse. It doesn't take much to cripple a warship; total destruction is
not required. Traditional naval engagements that battleships were built
for are just a numbers game -lob shells at a distance and hope your
shells are more accurate than his. A few hits and he or you are out of
the game. Imagine being under a hail of 1000lb bombs - half a ton of
explosive will do a lot of damage to director towers, bridges, control
rooms and disrupt communications. Multiply that by ten, say. Not too
long before the Channel .

Why do you think coastal shipping movement round the South and East of
Britain was done mostly under cover of darkness? So the matelots could
gaze at the stars and compose poetry? No, because the RN and the
merchant marine knew the Luftwaffe could bomb them out of the water if
they got the chance.

See above.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"A scone and tea at half past three
Makes the day a little brighter
Keep your cakes and fancy tarts
And stick them up your shiter."

 

is littered with the hulks of once-proud battleships.
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a

"A scone and tea at half past three
Makes the day a little brighter
Keep your cakes and fancy tarts
And stick them up your shiter."

 

I don't know much about the RAF cos nobody I knew was ever in it, except
for my Uncle Henry but he deserted. Which is odd when you consider my
working class background and the fact that in the RAf they send the
officers out to do the dying but of the few tales I do get from my
father about the fighting side of the war, who was effectively doing
good old democratic we all go down together naval coastal fishery
protection during the first half, was that the German Aircrews were
frightenly good at spotting and shooting both British Naval and Merchant
vessels and he has the holes and the odd nightmare still to prove it.

 

History books?? The People who were actually there are still alive, you
want to try asking them instead of some armchair observer commenting
from a thousand miles and 50 years away.