And away we go!

Does anyone, anywhere in the world, currently do rolling starts in M/C
road racing? Does Moto-ST?

I don't particularly like pace cars but it does help keep a tight
schedule. Having decided to use them in BSB, I think they're a bit too
ready to call them out. It feels like there are situations where a waved
yellow would have been ok. But then I'm not the doctor who's crouching
over a rider while racing is happening behind my back. Or the guy who's
just headbutted a Suzuki.

 

I believe ST does, but that's probably the extent of their use, but
when you think about it from someone's point of view who might not be
as dialed in as you, or I, it may give them a chance to find their
particular rider in a pack where in a more conventional start can be
difficult sometimes, then there's the safety aspect. Myself? I'm down
with the holeshots, but I'm a drag racer/dirt tracker at heart, so
that's just me. Another thing about moving starts that's probably been
overlooked is that they are much more impressive sitting in one of
those concrete abominations that pass for racetracks here in Yankland,
which may or may not) indicate a future move in that direction versus
the real road courses..

Yeah, it's difficult call as it's a POV thing, but I'd hate to see them
used to covertly, or purposely just to tighten up the field...

 

Sheeeeet, like anyone's gonna believe that...

 

Not really..

You may have center punched the deal with the 30 min remark, as I think
they see longer races as the way to go..

I don't really know Neal, I'd imagine they'll claim it's for safety,
but it probably has to do more with fan excitement, or the show, though
they may very well be setting everyone up for more races at the closed
tracks that Grand Am and Nascar run on, which, "oddly enough", France
and Co. own a lot of. There's little doubt now DMG is going to change,
not only what types of bikes we race, but how we race and while the
changes may look somewhat draconian and out of sync with other series,
it's pretty much how things are done over here and what most folks
*outside* of the current M/C crowd are familiar with. Understand I'm
not making any judgement, much less defending it, I was just wondering
what you guys found humorous. I'm sure to some these changes may appear
arrogant, or out of step with what happens in other places, but it may
be just because that's the way Grand Am does things and what they're
comfortable with...

 

Mark N tries to understand:

Try nippon no

If I could dredge up some more japanese, I'd give you something more
to excite her. It's always fun though, after listening to a couple
natives
jabber away knowing you don't understand, to pop in a "so desu ne" and
walk away. Keeps 'em guessing even though you didn't understand.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

sounds a little bit like defending it.

if they are going to follow the grand am model, maybe they should
add 2 more wheels to the bike too


Actually, the rolling start is counter to much of what they are doing.
They are trying to make things less "predictable" and a good or bas start
can make an immediate difference in a race, or a longer term one by
someone screwing the clutch, so it is one more "random" factor that
can alter a race, a rolling start would eliminate that.

Bruce

 

(Question for all) What is 'Gringo'? Or 'Cracker'?

That would depend on how merciful one wants to be toward another's
ignorance.

 

That doesn't make sense to me - a clutch start would seem to me to be
a lot more exciting than a rolling start.

It amusing from this side of the pond that a bunch of stock car guys
are going to re-invent bike racing in the US taking all their cues
from their car series (which is pretty much a US only thing anyway),
ignoring how bikes are raced all round the rest of the world.

 

The rolling start comes with the pace car. It would seem pretty
stupid to have the pace car out there so they can keep circling the
track while cleaning up a mess, and then have them come to a stop to
re-start. If they were going to stop anyway why bother with the pace
car? And if that is how you are going to re-start a race it only
sense to start them the same way.

Personally I think a standing start makes it easier to be sure
everyone is where they belong when the track goes green. With rolling
starts you get the front of the pack in reasonable shape and let them
go. Nobody wants to see five re-starts because the guy in 25th place
was hanging back so he could get a run at the guy ahead of him. As
far as safety they can both go good or bad.

 

Sense? That's a reason for doing away with grid starts?

Where pace cars are used the rule is always no passing (except if your
name is Scott Russell!) Hanging back is just part of the game. In
endurance where pit stops are inevitable, it's an opportunity to make a
stop while the field is going round relatively slowly. But in a sprint
race, everyone just bunches up in their current order in line astern.

"it's pretty much how things are done over here" Isn't that just the
most telling comment! "what most folks *outside* of the current M/C
crowd are familiar with." And that seems to be typical too. It's like
saying that in order to promote Soccer, we need to introduce advert
breaks every 2 minutes because people outside the Soccer world only know
American Football. oh... wait... Well get this. M/C racing is *not*
NASCAR. It's a different discipline.

When I've seen car rolling starts, the whole field is in a bunch usually
two by two. Now since M/C grids are usually 4 wide, surely a M/C rolling
start should also be 4 wide. But then that would be dangerous and
stupid, right? Apparently Moto_ST currently forms up the grid 2 by 2 and
then runs the warm up lap behind the pace car in 2 by 2.

Normally, getting a good start is a critical part of a sprint race. If
you take that away and position into the first corner is pretty much
exactly qualifying position, then qualifying becomes that much more
important. Which is going to push qualifying tyres and qualifying
crashes. If the final warm up lap is in line astern, how do you form the
riders up on the grid? Why even have a grid? You could just start the
warm up lap from pit lane. I only ask these questions because *nowhere
else* does rolling starts *anywhere* in M/C racing *anywhere* in the
world except Moto-ST.

At which point, I've never seen Moto-ST on TV so I have no idea if it's
a good spectacle, if it works and if it's safe. So frankly I'm just
speculating as to whether taking Moto-ST ideas and transferring them to
sprint races is sensible or horribly, horribly stupid. There is a
fundamental difference though. Moto-ST is an endurance race while 600,
SBK, DSB and Literbike are all sprint races with no planned pit stops.

 

Julian, you can interpret that any way you choose I suppose, but that's
pretty much how it is. These new guys have been fairly successful
blending some Stock car rules to Sports car racing *over here*, so I
don't see them going too far afield from what has worked in the past.
If anything you've ever said was dead-on, the "it's different over
here" is surely one of them and while some may take exception I don't
see it as judgmental, or derogatory, it just is. However, or whatever
people think about racing at the end of the day it's entertainment and
like it, or not they're going to promote it as such...

 

Yeah, like I haven't said that 4, or 5 times, once even before the sale
was announced too and if you'd stop jumping up and down waving your
arms in your particular brand of righteous indignation for just a few
minutes you might begin to see the what's really going on, though if
your past actions say anything there's little, or no chance of anything
like that happening...

 

Really, the last time I checked using slang to describe a geographical
area wasn't considered a racial epithet and is no different than anyone
calling us Yanks, 'Merkans, or USAin's. That Mark chooses to use the S
word instead of Chicano, the N word rather than black, or Euromedfag in
lieu of whatever is indicative of a person that's led a very isolated
life, that he thinks a biker's life less valuable than an "enthusiast"
only reinforces that too...

 

No more than me saying gravity will bring my lazyass to the ground if I
fall, it just is and as such I deal with it. All this pissin' and
moanin' over what the future will be, or what you, or I may like is
irrelevant, but to take it to MN's level one would have to really have
a vastly over-inflated sense of worth, that is, who gives a shit? I'll
say it again, these guys bought it and are going to do as they see fit.
I was involved in a couple take-overs during my airline days and one
work out pretty good, while the other, well, not so hot, but one thing
they had in common was that besides me just walking away I didn't have
any control over anything and I believe that can be applied in this
case. Like it, or not things are going to change and we're just
spectators in a fairly good sized poker game. Jumping up and down
cryin' is a waste of time and obscures the real processes going on and
if you haven't checked lately those processes are probably more
interesting than watching SB race, which, when you stop and think about
it, brings this whole thing full circle. It was universally said that
racing needed to improve and improvement can't, or doesn't happen
without change, well guess what? Change is upon us and we can either
walk away, or deal with it. I realize there are those who like to
confuse, or make issues more complex than they are, but that's really
the bottom line, isn't it?

 

Mike, your mail keeps bouncing, what's up with that and have you got
your Indy DT tickets yet?

 

No, hanging back is not part of the game. If someone near the front
tries it he will be told to close the gap while the whole field takes
another lap under yellow. If he does it again he will be sent to the
back. But if the guy in 25th does it they figure he's not really a
factor in the race so they start anyway. My contention is that the
standing start is more fair because it is easier to be sure that
everyone is where they belong before the green is given. I can see
where a rolling start with two per row should be safer than the usual
cluster f__k going into T1 on most standing starts.

I used to race in MC endurance races. It was fun to do, but I found
it boring to watch. So much so that I seldom watched the race when I
wasn't riding. I noticed many of the other racers felt the same way.

IMHO they would be better off taking a page from dirt track racing and
have more short races that don't have time to develop into a parade.

Bruce

 

Jeez, Tom, relax, I wasn't talking about that at all! I was just
commenting on your claim that you hadn't read that article - everyone
knows that when you say, "I hear rumor that..." or "What I've been
hearing around the campfire is...", what you really mean is, "I read
at Soup...". And being a chronic bluffer when it comes to the tuth,
one wouldn't be surprised to see you disavow the real source of your
"original" thought...

 

Radios will help with that too...

 

Really? You now speak for everyone? Heh, heh, trust me on this, you do
not and not even remotely either, as you only act like a sad little man
who, for some strange reason, thinks this his personal forum. I guess
you're too busy calling folks racist, rednecks, or whatever other lame
BS you may come up with at the time to notice, but I don't share
everything I hear and when I do I'm fairly certain of it before hand,
at least to some extent. Now, if some print, or web source source hears
it too, oh well, but unlike you and sometimes them, I try to offer what
I hear without bias for discussion. You see, also unlike you, I
understand I don't know it all and I care to LISTEN, as well as
understand what other folks may say. I also sometimes pick-up on things
that are overlooked when some people (you) with their vastly
over-inflated sense of self importance go off with some self righteous
bullshit. For instance, the article in question didn't really offer
much new and had I read it prior to responding I surely would've
commented on the one part that was probably not rehearsed. It obviously
went over your head so I'll point it out. "There was Daytona Superbike,
which has been discussed within the confines of Grand-Am, and with
Roger and Daytona International Speedway for quite some time, that kind
of format, and with some of the track owners." Now, ISTR mentioning
something very close a year or so ago and that's just another example
of things that get by you, but it solidifies a lot of what I have been
trying to say, These guys didn't just react to the sale offer, they had
plenty of time to think it all through beforehand and given who they
are and the money muscle they have, one might begin to wonder if they
didn't have a hand setting this whole thing up from the get-go, maybe
even going as far back as Chevy dropping their sponsorship too.
Understand, I'm not making any accusations, or for that matter, even
saying if doing so is shady, I am saying this deal has been pretty well
thought out and wonder why the OEM's seem to have been blind sided.This
is just one aspect that I think is getting past some people and if
they'd step back and keep their eyes, ears and mind open they might
actually get a clue as to what is really happening and believe me, it
has more drama than a lot of the actual racing these days.
Here's a couple more aspects that have been kicked around lately too,
is our dismal economic forecast going to help, or hinder the transition
to DSB? How will it effect any decision the Jap OEM's make when, or if
the time comes to say goodnight to SB and is DMG counting on that?
There's really a lot things happening I find interesting and for a
couple of reasons. 1st, it tells us who and what these guys are made of
and secondly, how they're going to play the game and all this hoopla of
who likes this, and who doesn't tends to obscure a rational
interpretation of what's really going on, but if name calling, jumping
up and down and stomping your feet like some spoiled child is how you
react to things you find uncomfortable, I suppose that's what you have
to do, unfortunately you'll probably miss some very good stuff because
of it...

 

While reading this I happen to think, rolling starts on motorcycles
are not without precident. Here is proof in the form of a video

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/?p=235

Bruce