And away we go!

So, you think M/C racing hasn't had it's "undesirables"? For instance,
ever heard of the HA Drag race team?

You see right there is where your argument gets weak and most likely
where a lot your grief about DMG comes from and TBH if I didn't know
better I'd probably agree with you, but the OEM's changed bike racing
from R&D to advertising quite a while back, even before the advent of
MGP. Sure, it use to be a testing, or a proving ground for their latest
and greatest, but today it's really nothing more than a vehicle to sell
their stuff and if you don't think so, then perhaps you need to think
again. Oh, and by the way DMG had absolutely nothing to do with that
either, however, they do seem to be taking it to a new level, but you
know what? It's theirs to do so..

Really? I heard they do Mark, I seem to remember reading somewhere
they're gonna jump in with both feet next year with a 1000cc inline(I
think) four..

You may be saying that, but to me it looks like your standing in a
glass house with a loaded sling-shot. This whole fuckin' country was
built on racism and damn near every part of it still has some to one
degree, or another and it has little to do with class, color, money or
geographical location either. I can remember white only bathrooms and
not just in the south either, in fact, most of the hard core racism, or
bigotry I've ever seen happened up north! So, maybe you need to
re-think that as well..

There you go again, Howard chose not to pursue what he thought might
incite, or resurrect your past statements and instead of just letting
it slide you chose to dump on him. (batshitivness?;-) Now, I'm all
about political UNcorrectness as I think it's just so much bullshit,
however, you've crossed waay over that line more than a few times. I
dunno, maybe it's where you live, or something, but in most places you
can't, or won't talk shit like you have and expect to live a full, or
intact life, 'cause somebody will knock your shit in the dust. Racism
is still alive, of that there's little doubt, but it's nothing like
what it was just a generation ago and yes, I'm sure your right saying
there's racist in Nascar, but there's racism and bigotry damn near
everywhere to some extent, or another, so what's your point?

 

Well said and I agree..

 

so you are saying the the current race reps are no different
than they were 20 years ago? 10 years ago?

Bruce

 

I'm saying beyond MGP there isn't any street bike development going on
at the track these days, they prove and test before they get there and
they race to show their wares and little else. Yes, back in the day if
they found, say, a head that ran too hot, or a cam too weak at the
track they would change it for the street, but that was then and this
is now. Understand I'm not making a judgement here, I'm just pointing
out what might be Mark's hang-up, err, one of them anyway..

 

No there production based racing, so you have it backwards. To do better
in racing they have to develop the street bike to be better. In some
watered down spec HP, spec weight, spec tire, spec fuel class there is
no incentive to make a better street bike (lighter, more powerful, etc)
because it won't help them win races. Look at Honda and the 600s they won
in FX (with Miggy/Jake, then Josh) because they could mod the hell out
of it, but in SSport it wasn't a factor, until they debuted the new RR
last year and Josh almost (and should have) won the championship. If the
DSB class is so straightjacketed in rules that my 99 F4 is against the caps
what is the point of making a better bike to start with?

Bruce

 

You're wrong.

One of the design parameters for each new sports model is to beat its
competitors at the track. If this wasn't true, we'd still all be
riding around on GSX-R 1100s.

 

I think you're absolutely right, there is huge sportbike development
going on at the track, every new model incorporates changes that make
the bikes faster and better on the track. One of the reasons the GSX-
R1000 is so good, so successful on the track is their consistency in
racing it, in particular in AMA SB with Mladin & team's feedback. But
the bikes are good enough now that they really han't make giant leaps
any longer, it's really just more refinement.

The one positive I can see regarding a horsepower cap in DSB is it may
stop the factories from being so peak-focused and instead will focus
on powerband and tractable power, which would be an improvement on the
street. On the other hand, weight minimums will likely move their
focus off of making the bikes lighter, which has benfits on the
street. But in the end they have to be able to be racing each other
for wins and championships and not playing second-fiddle to some Euro
twin favored under the rules - they will bail if they don't have a
realistic shot at winning, and that's probably the thing I'm most
concerned about regarding NASBike and DSB.

 

Semantics I guess, so I'll try again. There's no development at the
track per se, of course they try build stuff to best their rival's, but
what happens *at the track* is *advertising*, not *development*. Racing
for sure shows what everybody has, but there's no actual development
there anymore, that falls to their R&D riders back at the factory.
Which, as you might have guessed, is why I say the OEM's have a big
head start before the 1st green flag drops, as they not only built it,
they've race tested it too. They already know what parts might be too
weak to race, or how to tweak the FI map, or whatever, but Joe Blow has
to find out for himself once he gets the bike and when you couple their
built-in advantage with a high dollar rider you get exactly what we see
in SB, follow me? Now, if it's accurate that the direction is back to a
more sstock deal that may help a little, but not as much as some might
want you to believe and don't get me wrong, I have nothing against any
factory, but you shouldn't discount their edge...

 

I guess you either misunderstood, or more than likely, I didn't lay it
out well enough, but I got busy mowing the f'ing yard, check my revised
reply to Hartweg...

 

But the *advertising* is by winning. And to win they develop the bike to be better.
But if the dumbing/limiting/spec class damps down too much, then there is no point
in developing a better bike, because a better bike won't be allowed to race.
So development halts.

Look at it another way, NASCAR cars provide zero input into improving any new factory
car. No new feature in any auto today has any relevance to the racing and vice versa.
I'd really not like to see that happen to bike racing.

Bruce

 

I think what it comes down to is purely marketing then. Development on
the bikes will continue, because the OEMs race them elsewhere and
under rules that incentivize them to make the bikes better. But here
they are going to be racing only as a marketing tool, and that mostly
only helps them if they do well, although just flying the flag helps
some. So if the rules are set up in a fashion that favors non-fours,
then they won't be winning, or as much as they'd want. And if the
rules incentivize teams to run the non-fours, then they don't even
have customer bikes out there in numbers. They may still support some
teams to maintain visibility, but they won't spend a huge amount of
money on that.

So it probably comes down to what NASBike wants to do, how much they
really desire to minimize or eliminate the Japanese factories. If they
want to run a level series, meaning a given non-factory team with a
given rider could do equally well on just about any available brand,
then the Japanese will win and the factories will stay in it, even if
the R&D use of the series is lessened. If NASBike wants the factories
out, or even just wants to stop them from winning all the time, that
will happen. Then the question becomes, what's left?

 

Winning sells bikes, it's like the egg/chicken thing..

C'mon you really think something like that is possible given the one-up
manship and cut-throat nature of new bike sales? Not a chance..

Are you saying because the OEM's don't really race their stuff in
Nascar they don't improve? I hope not, because of course they've
improved and if they keep paying France and Co. they can run their
models too, but you know what? I think a lot of this Nascar does this
and that isn't going to crossover to the bikes, I see them moving more
in Grand Am's direction rather than Nascar, but we'll see...

 

At the moment it feels like the 2009 AMA championships are changing
daily. So I guess it's going to be a while before anyone actually sees
some hard rules and regulations. Want to bet when anyone sees hard
documents?

I had to laugh at this on the RRW report.

---------
"DMG Director of Road Race Competition Colin Fraser

Fraser admitted that he has not seen the complete proposed 2009
Superbike/LiterBike rules, but he said he had “some notion†of what
they include."
---------

So the director turns up to a meeting with the OEMs to tell them the
2009 rules are out without actually reading them first and then gets
forced to step down and accept them. Doh!

Then you look at this.
---------
It will have a rule structure designed to “promote parity and
competition†among Twins, Triples and four-cylinder machines, allowing
participation from the maximum number of brands from around the world.
DMG’s presentation states that 10 manufacturers (Aprilia, BMW, Buell,
Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Suzuki, Triumph and Yamaha) currently
offer a motorcycle eligible for the class.

Daytona Superbike will be open to “homologated and available
motorcycles,†will include “middleweight performance horsepower
limits†(approximately 130 horsepower has been mentioned) and will
have “targeted and specific power-to-weight ratios†(rider weight
included). The class will have a single tire supplier, a single fuel
supplier, regular Engine Control Unit (ECU) exchanges and only
“homologated, available and affordable aftermarket components†will
be allowed.
---------

There's a lot of detail in there that is going to be damned hard to turn
into a rule book. And there's plenty of potential for argument between
the teams and the organisers. And I'd still love to know exactly which
models from each manufacturer's range they think ought to be out there.

What is this literbike? Is a Litre really spelt Liter in the USA?

Then we get into the literbike regs and the requirement that each
manufacturer has a minimum of 4 and a maximum of 6 bikes on the grid.
Look at the manufacturers who could potentially race. Aprilia, BMW,
Buell, Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Suzuki, Yamaha, MV will or might
have an SBK bike in the next couple of years. It's pretty hard to see
anyone but Suzuki meeting that requirement. So is Literbike a grid of 6?
If KTM, Ducati, MV wanted to run 1 or 2 bikes are they excluded? If
Suzuki already has 6 and a privateer wants to run one as well are they
excluded?

Does anyone, anywhere in the world, currently do rolling starts in M/C
road racing? Where's the detail? Will the riders have to be in line
astern in qualifying order?

What a joke.

 

Advertising is partly by winning, but partly just by doing reasonably
well and being on TV. I watched the 600SS race from Barber, and while
the Yamahas pulled a bit of a gap and ended up first and second, Rapp
and Zemke made the Kawasaki and Honda look pretty good too. 600SS
certainly isn't retarding development, even though it's got seriously
restrictive rules.

Superbike is broken because Yosh has just gotten too far ahead, to the
point that no one else thinks it's worth seriously trying to catch
them. There's only so much viewer interest out there to sell
advertising against, and right now it's not economical to try to wrest
some of it out of Suzuki's grip. The sanctioning body has to decrease
the cost of challenging Yosh or increase the number of people watching
the races, or else nothing will change. I'm not convinced that what
DMG is proposing is the right idea, but at least they recognize what
they're facing with the series as it is now.

Limited modifications from the production bike are the answer here.
So are fuel limits and endurance racing, sadly enough.

-jake

 

No I'm saying Nascar doesn't have anything to do with the improvements
and I don't think winning in Nascar has much effect on car sales. Your
ford Nascar fans won't go by a chevy if that cars wins and vice
versa. Nascar has more advertising for non-automotive things than the
actual makers. That could be where the new bike racing goes - pure
entertainment and 2 wheeled billboards for soap and viagra. if that
happens it could be "successful" but the factories won't care. Right
now winning is advertising - later it might not matter.

funny you should say that - the DMG guys say the same thing...
<http://superbikeplanet.com/2008/Apr/080423-dmg-view.htm>

Bruce

 

Well said, to the point and accurate too..

 

It probably does, or at the very least give them a bunch of on-air
exposure with folks who actually do buy cars, which, to me, brings this
whole deal back to advertising...

 

Wait a second, don't you guys use pace cars in lieu of red flags? If
so, explain what's so funny...

 

...But Mommy, Tommy says it all the time. Yes son, but Tommy knows the
difference between slang and a slur, you don't, now go wash your mouth
out with soap!

Your douchieness is overwhelming, Nip, short for Nippon, is what the
Japs, or Nips call themselves and their country and had you ever
bothered to go there, or even actually know someone of *Nipponese*
origin you'd be aware of that fact. I use Dago and Limey too and while
to an ignorant and arrogant fucktard who doesn't know shit from a hole
in the ground, not mention the difference between slang and a slur, may
think those offensive too, alas, they'd be wrong, again...

 

What I think you might be overlooking is the brand recognition both the
OEM's and others get from Nascar with the folks that actually are
predisposed to buy their wares, that is, those people, not only can
afford, but do buy their stuff, I think it's called focused
advertising, or something of the sort. Now, I don't see Joe Blow
switching cars just because Jr., or Jeff won last Sunday, but I do
think there's some brand reinforcement happening. For instance, ever
seen one of those guys in the winner circle? I like to thank Ford,
Chevy, Pontiac, Toyota, or Ford and Viagra, Goodyear, Preparation H and
on and on. Heh, some of those guys can't name all their sponsors in one
breath and when you think about it, that's really the trick that made
Nascar what it is. Can DMG do the same for M/C racing? We'll see, but
if Grand Am is any indication, they've, at the very least, got a shot
at it..

I hadn't seen that, thanks...