AMA Pro Racing Rules

AMA Pro Racing finally releases the rules package and it's pretty much
where you might have expected it to end up if you'd guessed in Feb. So
all that heartache and messing around was for nothing.

Superbike: Very close to WSB but:-
- Without the ongoing adjustments to Twins
- With 2008 style BSB restrictions on cranks/conrods/pistons; All stock.
- With modified stock forks rather than free replacements
- With stock gearbox
- With Dunlop spec tyres
- Same cam limits. stock lift/free duration.
So. A bit cheaper due to the gearbox and forks. A bit more expensive if
stock cranks/rods/pistons means more rebuilds to make sure they survive.
Performance should be close to the same as now and close to WSB/BSB

Daytona Sportbike.
- The expected mix of Aprilia RSV, BMW HP2 Sport, Buell 1125R, Ducati
848, Honda CBR600RR, Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R, KTM Super Duke, Suzuki
GSX-R600, Triumph Daytona 675, Yamaha YZF-R6.
- Maybe I missed it but I can't see any reference to horsepower
checking. With cams, valves, head all stock with no modifications
allowed it's hard to see where any tuning is going come from apart from
a pipe and power commander. Which probably means a single machine will
dominate.

Supersports.
- Daytona Sportbike with an age limit on the rider. Other wise I can't
see any difference

And then there's Moto-GT. With a horsepower limit and very little said
about what you can change in the engine.

And of course the fly in the ointment. "Aftermarket parts and equipment
must be approved by AMA Pro Racing and must appear on the Eligible
Equipment List before being used in competition. Each company with
approved equipment must post bonus awards for those products." Which
apparently applies to all classes. With the relatively free spec in
Superbike, you have to wonder how the hell that will work.

---

Hard to find anything about homologation on Superbike. It's just
different enough from BSB/WSB and with Dunlop tyres there's not much
hope of wild cards at the WSB round(s) in North America. Or any cross
over and tuning info from other national teams or the factories.

I don't know. Still looks like a mess to me. And its still not clear
who's actually going to go racing. Will Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki
field teams in Superbike? How about DSB?

 

Personalities and posturing aside, I believe the economy, or lack of
it, drove the sides together, albeit grudgingly..

I saw no mention of the Red Bull thing either.

I'm told these rules are "in transit" and there will be a major push to
for a universal set for all national series through the FIM and if this
deal is any indicator that should be very "interesting," to say the
least...

 

From what I read Twins would have 15lb lower minimum weight.
I don't think that makes up for the displacement difference in SBK, but it
is something.


--
Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Kiddo

 

I think it's 15lb *more* weight for twins. But WSB has a complicated
adjustment process based on average points over groups of 3 races. If
the twins get too fast they add weight and then restrict intakes. If
they're not fast enough, they lose weight.

In WSB they didn't have to use it. In BSB, they added 5 kilos once.

So why doesn't the US use kilos for their race regs?

 

Well WSB set a process in place, everyone agreed to it and then they
followed it. And over the season, really the only guy to push the Ducati
up to the podium has been Bayliss. And all the fours were right behind
him. It's not like Bayliss has just cleared off into the lead and we've
had some great racing.

It did all get a bit silly. Add 10 kilos, refuse to accept it, modify it
to 5 kilos, do nothing because the bike with fuel was already 5 kilos
over the lower limit. Lots of ways to win races in the back room as well
as out on the track. But then a sudden jump in a developed race bike of
10 kilos is a lot. The NW200 team have filled the front axle with lead,
put the starter motor back in and replaced all the titanium nuts and
bolts and that was still not enough.

 

I think that's right but I'm not entirely sure it's a problem. As you've
said it's all twins against all fours. There's nothing about splitting
it by factory. So if Twins (Ducati) take 50% of the points and Fours
(from any factory) take 50% of the points nothing changes. But there are
more fours on the grid and with Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda all taking
podiums or wins, I suppose that favours a single Ducati getting more and
more competitive as weight is removed. But there's also the factor of
the points difference so even if a single Ducati regularly finished
first with a four always in 2nd and 3rd, the points difference never
gets quite enough to trigger any change.

Yeah, whatever.

I don't know what's happening next year and if they'll keep the same
handicapping scheme.

For all that, there's been no change triggered by this rule, and there's
a good case to be made that Ducati are pretty even with the other
factories. And that the best, most consistent rider won the
championship. Haga got very close and it was actually stupid mistakes
early in the season that put him out of the running. I suspect that the
different overall performance between the Ducati and Yamaha has actually
been about tyre preservation though the race and not outright speed. The
Ducati doesn't seem to have either a top speed or an acceleration
advantage. It doesn't even have a nimbleness advantage. But perhaps it
preserves its rear tyre better. but even that has been confused by
Pirelli still not getting quality control right. There's been races
where Corser especially and occasionally Haga have tyres that just plain
didn't work in one race when the same compound was fine in the other
race.

Whatever. Next year's WSB promises to be great and perhaps the best
ever. (Don't we always say that!). Shakey Byrne, Johnny Rea, Spies, Haga
on the Ducati, Biaggi on the Aprilia, Corser on the BMW, Checa's 2nd
year, Stiggy Motorsports moving to SBK. And WSS will be good too.

 

But there has to be something. Either you accept that Ducati are part of
the entertainment or you don't. If they are part of the game, then you
have to find some equivalence rule. If you just say 1000cc, same tuning,
same weight, Ducati will never win. If you say 1000-4, 1200-2, equal
weight, equal tuning, Ducati can build a bike that will dominate if they
can get the right rider. Despite the championships, Ducati have been
competitive but not dominant in actual races in BSB and WSB. Which
suggests the initial weight difference is about right. So let's say you
then build in some mid-year adjustment. If its completely arbitrary from
the organisers then somebody is going to get upset. If you build a rule
it's always going to be slightly wrong.

In reaction to the same old, same old, repeated negatives about
Europeans, kids and midgets. It's so f**ing boring to hear the same old
sarcastic slurs over and over and over again.

Jeez, did you actually watch that race? Most riders would have settled
for the points and waited for another chance to seal the championship.
Bayliss rode his heart out to try and win it right then. That's why we
love him.

I think Haga will come second next year. I just don't know who to.

I think you wrote that wrong. I think you meant to say, "But if Spies
gets his butt handed to him"

This all depends on exactly how the homologation works. If it's 3000,
California-approved sales, then the 1098R won't be eligible. And given
the tuning limits I don't think a race bike built on the 1098s will be
competitive. If it's a 50 49-state sales, Ducati will build a 1098RR and
it'll win everything.

So many mixed messages. One minute its US only rules, then its WSB
rules, the next its building common rules for all national championships
with the FIM. DMG could have just adopted FIM rules. But all the
arguments scuppered that whether it was a good idea or not. And it
probably is too late now to do that for 2009. It wasn't too late in
Sept. It isn't actually too late now. But somebody (Yamaha?) won't agree
to it.

IMHO all the national championships should just adopt the FIM rules and
delegate homologation to them with the one exception of being able to
choose tyre supplier or allow tyres to be free.

 

Strange. I'm sure I remember one of the DMG press releases from the most
recent round that talked about DMG working with the FIM to come up with
a consistent set of rules for all the national SBK championships. Or did
I imagine that?

 

So what was yo mama's position in 1995?

Let me guess. Biaggi?

Spies is potentially in a no-win position. He really needs to win the
championship and soon if he's going to keep moving up and get to MotoGP.
That's a big ask in 2009 on a new bike on new tyres on circuits he
doesn't know on, no matter how good he is. So what can we reasonably
expect? What will he have to do to earn the respect of people who never
saw any AMA races? When do you think the first win will come?

Hard to imagine they won't or maybe they'll build something that can
still be turned into the same race bike but for the masses. There's
already rumours of an 1198 1098S. Same engine, same chassis, and all the
rest of the gear can be changed (in WSB) so it doesn't matter.

And the irony is that enforcing stock crankshaft, rods and pistons makes
it more expensive not less, because you have to rebuild the engine more
often and waste money on finding perfect examples. Forcing stock front
suspension means you have to get it modified instead of just buying
Ohlins or Showa off the shelf. ECU is still free and so still dependent
on factory budgets for setup even if aftermarket ECUs are available. So
where exactly is this cheaper and where was the unobtainium that only
the factories could get?

 

Take everything DMG has said in the last eight moths, think about how
much of it was true, and get back to me with what you think is
strange...

 

Don't know about my mama, but I was all for the AMA equalizing minimum
weights in the middle of '94 and the results pretty much proved them
correct.

The old fart who hasn't won a race all year on a Ducati? Nah...

To earn the respect of Europe he'd have to clinch the championship by
the third round, is my guess.

I don't think he has to win the championship at all to get into
MotoGP, he just has to show enough given his circumstances to get
moved up by Yamaha, who will certainly be replacing Edwards next year.
What that is I don't know, it depends a lot on the machine and how
well others do. My guess is a double win at Miller and another win or
two, a handful of other podiums and maybe a top four in points would
be plenty. But he also has to show an ability to adapt, an ability to
race for position, consistency and advancing results over the season,
and he pretty much has to be beating his teammate, who doesn't know
the tracks and bike anymore than he does, right?

Is that really true? SStock bikes run stock pistons, rods, cranks,
fork externals, and are they much more expensive to build and
maintain? Is there anything modifiable that puts significantly more
stress on these parts than what they have in SStock? And how much does
an Olhins fork cost? I don't quite buy this argument yet. As for
unobtainium, I think that was mostly a steaming pile in the first
place.

 

Heh, Take EVERYTHING you've ever said that was going to happen and get
back to us when it does, until then, continue to eat shit...

 

But SBK allows headwork and cam changes. In a horsepower war that leads
to chasing revs. Which then leads to limited life for the pistons, rods
and crank and more frequent blow ups and/or rebuilds. Which is exactly
why the BSB teams (particularly Suzuki and Yamaha) pushed for WSB rules,
aftermarket rods and pistons.

Depends on what spec you go for. £3000 to £15,000 for the freely
available ones. WP are cheaper. No idea about aftermarket Showa.
Although its all expensive at least its easy to buy. It's the same deal
with wheels and brakes. None of its cheap but you can buy it off the
shelf.

 

Yup, I was a bit wrong. So? So bite me. Oh. Wait. You did.

Oh. Wait. That's exactly what happened.

 

FIM WSBs rules are here
http://fim.ch/en/default.asp?item=27#

At start of 2008, BSB rules were basically the same as FIM except stock
pistons and rods. For 2009 the BSB rules are the same as FIM for engine
tuning. The BSB rules are out there somewhere but I can't find them
right now. One big difference was that BS had its own homologation. This
prevented the 1098R from competing in Superstock[1]. So the NW200 team
got dispensation to run their Superstock tune 1098R with alternate 16.5"
wheels and slicks in the BSB privateers cup.

The relationship between the governing body and the teams is pretty good
and open. So yes, everyone has agreed.

WSB, BSB, WSS600 and BSS600 all have basically the same cam restriction.
stock lift, free duration. WSB-BSB allow valves and springs to be
changed but of the same diameters. WSS600 and BSS600 valves are stock.
WSB-BSB(09) require stock crank but free rods and pistons. BSB(08) was
stock rods and pistons. WSB, BSB, WSS600 and BSS600 all allow alternate
gearboxes. WSB, BSB allow full gas flowing and machining of heads but
with stock valve seats. WSS600 and BSS600 you can only remove metal from
the head.

One quirk in here is that Ducati wanted to use 2 ring pistons in BSB and
weren't allowed to in 08. But it looks like they will be allowed to in
09.

The push from stock rods/pistons to aftermarket rods/pistons was largely
from Suzuki and Yamaha. They were both pushing the engines to higher
revs and had consequent blow ups in early races. By the end of the year
they'd worked out how to be fast and reliable but in mid year the
decision was still to move to WSB rules.

The mgmt summary.
- WSB/BSB-09 virtually free chassis, free engine tuning with stock lift
cams and stock throttle bodies.
- WSS600, BSS600. Modified stock chassis, more limited engine tuning
with more stock parts than WSB. Free gearbox.
- BSB-08 virtually free chassis, roughly WSS600 engine tuning with more
stock parts than WSB. Free gearbox.
- AMA-SB-08. virtually free chassis, roughly WSS600 engine tuning with
more stock parts than WSB. Stock gearbox.
- FX virtually free chassis with roughly WSS600 engine tuning. Stock
gearbox
- ASB virtually free chassis with roughly WSS600 engine tuning. Stock
gearbox.
- DSB Modified stock chassis, virtually no engine tuning except
compression change by skimming the head or reducing the gasket

[1]Again, I don't know what Ducati are going to do with the 1098R
homologation for 2010. The limit is going from 1000 to 3000. This ought
to prevent them from racing the 1098R in both WSB and Superstock. They
probably have built 1000 1098Rs but I doubt they've made 3000. So maybe
we'll see an 1198S produced in that quantity.

 

As much as I detest giving stage to an elitist racist loser, I will,
from time to time expose your incessant and over the top drivel for
what it is, total bullshit. You're the goggle guy, not me, so, if you
actually check I think you'll find that I said the economy will
ultimately dictate how far, as well as how fast France and Co. takes
M/C racing to their vision and if you haven't noticed, your boi Bush
has pretty much fucked us all in ways we haven't even realized yet, but
make no mistake, the Daytona Boy's haven't altered what they feel is
the way forward..
Oh, and by the way, don't think I'm in lockstep with that vision, as
that would be another error on your part...


Wed. mid-night(45 degrees!) in Kowsimmee Florida, the Bill and B-Rock
show drew 50k!

Change is comin', soon too!!!

 

Missed that one. So Dunlop go back a generation on tyres?

24 Litres not enough? But weren't the races being shortened a little as
well?

Ah. So Suzuki don't think their motors will survive the rev limit
without aftermarket rods and pistons. And maybe altered cranks.

 

Who knows what Dunlop will do. I suspect the decision was based on
what wheel size is stock on the machines and that there will be at
least some privateers who won't be able to afford aftermarket wheels.
Harris' issue, I believe, was that they and others have all these
16.5" wheels that are now useless, and they have to invest in new
wheels.

Yes, they are at 50 miles now, used to be 100k. Not sure what the
issue is here, assumption is that it has something to do with motor
spec and the fuel to be used. Who knows.

The article says this one is a bit disingenuous, because the AMA '09
rules called for stock bottom end. But those rules were adopted prior
to the '08 BSB experience and that mnay have had an impact. The other
potential issue of concern could be what they anticipate they'd have
to do to beat a theoretical 1098R twin under these rules, again
foreshadowed by the BSB experience.

My impression is that the particulars are less important than the
overall message, which is that the factories aren't necessarily on
board with everything now, there are open items that DMG won't even
detail until 2-3 weeks before the scheduled Daytona tire test, and DMG
wasn't being honest when they suggested all the factories were fully
on board a couple weeks ago. They seem satisfied with the basic
outline of ASB and DSB, but there are particular items they view as
needing further discussion and others that haven't even been detailed
yet. So Edmondson's recent announcments are a bit like Kissinger's
"peace is at hand" announcement right before the '72 presidential
election - at best premature, at worst a flat out lie...

 

As much as I'd like to see all the factories involved I'm about 5 miles
past weary on this whole deal. The what happened, or who did what time
is past and yeah, it's unfortunate feeling's got hurt, or whatever it
was that really went on, but you know what? Shit happens and it pretty
much always accompanies change and I don't care if some OEM hack that
doesn't deserve, either through ability, or impartiality a column in CN
claims that one side won, which, by the way, I think not only revealing
and foolish, but divisive as well.
I was hoping we'd be looking forward to March right now instead of
what's obviously nothing more than petty bickering about something that
is going to happen with, or without Suzuki, or any other OEM that
decides not to be involved. Enough already, either race, or don't...

 

Let's review...

Fact: DMG has unilaterally acted to fundamentally alter the class and
rules structure in the AMA series. Assumption: Their goal was to have
a feature class that worked for Daytona, and which was more stock and
cheaper and would result in closer racing. Maybe.
Fact: The OEMs reacted badly and immediately to what DMG was doing
with the class rules, although the levels of objection varied.
Fact: DMG proceeded with an extended dance on the class definitions
lasting all summer, and the intentions beyond that weren't at all
clear. Assumption: Their overall intent was to f*ck with the Japanese
OEMs, but the real reason for that isn't entirely clear.
Fact: When the break between DMG and three of the Japanese OEMs took
place in the fall, it was the objections of the tracks/promoters that
came to the fore, making it clear that a full schedule wasn't going to
happen without the OEMs and their stars and sponsorship dollars. What
became very clear then was that DMG simply doesn't have the power to
do just what they want, they have to listen to the tracks and OEMs.
Fact: While they hardly conceded an entirely traditional class
structure, the significant changes in the classes announced last month
were clearly a concession by DMG to the OEMs and tracks. But that was
not much more than an outline, and there are significant details that
DMG continues to drag their feet on announcing. Some of those are of
real concern to the OEMs.

What is now clear to me is that the OEMs still aren't convinced on
this whole deal, and that the tracks are only as convinced as the
OEMs. If the OEMs were committed we'd be hearing contract
announcements, and we are not. So DMG can go race at Daytona, that
much is certain, but where they go after that is still up in the air,
to some extent. You can continue to try to demonize and isolate the
Japanese OEMs, but that doesn't quite comport to reality, does it?