Air conditioning *rocks*

Maybe you would like to know a wee bit more. A quick google returns

http://www.greenpeace.org.au/archives/olympics/reports/refrigeration.pdf

Which whilst I doubt is entirely objective it gives you an idea of the
problem. There has been much done to reduce the environmental impact of air
conditioning systems over the last 10 - 15 years but truly green air
conditioning systems remain some way off.

 

I hope it isn't Freon as it is a CFC and it's use in new systems is now
banned. Getting replacement gas will also be a tad difficult.

 

Big Tony wrote:

Thanks for that Tony. I seriously doubt that Paul's new system is has a
true "freon" (Also known as R12) refrigerant charge as it's usage was indeed
banned some time ago.

It is more likely to be an R22 system, which, is being phased out of usage,
and is now widely superceded by "greener" gases. Some of the cheaper
(mainly Chinese) manufacturers are still offerring R22 Cooling Only systems,
although all heat pump systems are now either R407c or the much newer R410a.

If Paul's system is charged with R22, provided it was professionally
installed with the correct refrigerant transfer equipment, the gas will not
have been released to atmosphere. Provided the interconnecting copper tubes
have been correctly brazed whilst purging with dry nitrogen, and the flare
nutted mechanical joints correctly torqued down, again, the gas will remain
safely contained within the system.

If Paul decides to go "green", he could consider having the existing gas
charge reclaimed and destroyed, and replacing it with a Zero ODP drop-in
replacement, such as Isceon 59, which is manufactured by Rhodia. Whilst the
new gasses (R407c, R410a) are very much less harsh on the environment
(should they be released to atmosphere), they both have problems; R407c is a
blend, which can, under certain conditions, stratify within the pipework,
and R410a works at far higher pressures than R22 or R407c.

The closest thing we have (I believe) to a "green" refrigerant system is
ammonia, although this is only generally used in large scale refrigeration
plant, and gas fired chiller systems.

It is my belief that aiming legislation at the refrigerant gases, rather
than those who use it it the wrong way to tackle the problems associated
with the misuse of refrigerants. Rather than compromising the efficiency of
the gas, I feel the installers should be legislated against, and a national
qualification be introduced, without which, purchase of the products cannot
be made. I once had a plumber contact me, asking what he needed to do an
aircon installation, as in his opinion it was the thing to get into, and
must be the same as plumbing as it was just a bunch of copper pipe and
cabling. When I informed him that he would need several specialist tools,
oh, and 5 years at college he was not impressed, even less so when I refused
to sell any aircon related equipment to him.

Another major culprit is the "Auto Aircon Specialist" offerring a "top up
service" on vehicle AC. Any AC system is a sealed unit, if the gas needs
topping up it must have a leak, which needs to be fixed before any
recharging is carried out. However, I know of people who fully expect to
have their car aircon "topped up" each year with R134a, and are quite happy
to pay a premium for this, whilst contributing to ozone depletion and the
exacerbation of the greenhouse effect.

Now, do I get an ANORAK number?
--
Dan L (Oldbloke)
My Bike 2000 Honda CB500
M'boy's Bike 1990 Suzuki TS50X (Heavily fortified)

BOTAFOT #140, DIAABTCOD #26

 

Are you sure? I thought it was the normal CFC replacement, BICBW.

 

Banned by whom? It's a LG unit. I think it may be British. Everyone in
the village has got at least one.

 

Oldbloke wrote:

I think it's maybe used as a generic name for whatever gas is in there?

This one is heating as well as cooling. Is that what you mean?

Erm, it was Juan from the supermarket, down Calle Campillos. I think he
just started up. I noticed that the cable wasn't long enough, so he's
joined another bit on. Twisted the wires together and wrapped in tape.
On an outside wall. Professional or what?

 

R410a.

I thought R22 had been phased out from the start of this year but there may
be a few exceptions.

IIRC his system cost 700 quid.

Have you experienced any problems with 407C? When it came out much was made
of differential leakage and temperature glide but I haven't heard of any
problems.

Also by green I didn't just mean ODP there is GWP to consider also.

I tend to agree but it has other more immediate environmental problems when
it leaks and the machines tend to be more expensive bits of kit owing to
their more robust construction. You aren't allowed to put them in basements
either.

Do you mean absorption chillers?

Interestingly in carrying out TEWI calculations you have to assume an annual
leakage rate of 33% for Auto AC systems. I am not sure why but I suppose the
increased rate of leakage is probably takes into account factors such as
leakages when vehicles are involved in collisions and the fact that it is
more difficult to make a leak free moving AC system.

Not until you've explained these gas fired-ammonia chillers and asked the
KotL.

 

International Treaty and European directive.

I think it may be British. Everyone in

As Dan says it probably isn't Freon. I would guess it's R407C, which is
reasonably environmentally friendly depending on your POV.

 

New units are not being manufactured using R22, but there are still some old
stock units being punted around. IIRC you will not be able to purchase R22
as a gas after around 2009.

I have taken the figure of £700 to be the installed price, the actual kit
will prolly be around half that (if it's a small single split system)

We have had problems on early R407c systems, as the electronics were not too
good at controlling the glide, also, the stratification factor maniifested
itself on one particular site (in a comms room, natch) where a ceiling
cassette would turn to a block of ice for no good reason. We also
experienced erosion of the brass flare fittings, which the manufacturer's
advised was not uncommon, and the best thing was to cut them out and braze
straight onto the copper stubs. Strangely enough this was a UK based
manufacturer, none of the Japanese ones have reported this as a problem.
When R407c first came out, some suppliers were selling "optimised for R407c"
systems, which in reality meant that they had drilled a hole in the
compressor, drained out the mineral, refilled with polyolester and brazed
shut the hole. Unfortunately the electronics were a bit crap at dealing
with the R407c glide characteristics.

Yes, although sometimes they are also referred to as adsorption chillers.
Luckily I know (or wish to know) little of these as my business in primarily
in electric systems. However, I note that a few of the mainstream AC
manufacturers, such as Sanyo and MHI are offerring a gas fired alternative
to traditional VRF type installations, which is useful to have up one's
sleeve when available power on a site is limited. However, I would prolly
"get a man in" to advise me if this scenario presented itself.

I'll hold up my hands here, as I do not touch vehicle AC. However, AIUI
leaks tend to occur after the winter months, as the systems are rarely
switched on, which causes the rupper seals to shrink and let by. Still, 33%
leakage is pretty crap IMHO. ISTR my VW handbook advising to run the AC for
at least 10 mins every time the car is used, this could possibly be to keep
the seals moist, certainly my 5 year old Golf's AC has not needed topping
up, and has plenty of duty.

Bugger, got me on the ammonia chillers.....

<FX slopes off>

 

I paid 777 euros fitted. I think the units cost around 500 euros.