A tale of a ringed bike (longish)

I won this auction, rather to my surprise:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110238970691

It timed out at an odd time, so my low bid secured it. And it was all of
a mile away. So I trogged round, cash in pocket, to take it away.
Bargain.

The seller was genuine, and he'd had the bike for 21 years, having
bought it from a mate at work. Loads of paperwork, loads of old MoTs and
bills. Everything pointed to my acquiring a nice nearly-stock GS750, but
like I always do, I said: "Let's just check the numbers" and took the V5
in my hand, noting with surprise that the frame number thereon was just
five digits long instead of starting GS750(whatever).

Engine number: fine. Frame number....

....hang on. What's this?

It started GS7 and then the numbers had been obliterated. And five
digits (the same as on the V5) were visible after that. Only thing was,
they were in a different font, a different size, and uneven.

Yup, it had been restamped. It was a fucking ringed bike.

The seller was gobsmacked and couldn't believe it. I had to take him
through it, stage by stage. "Look closely. You can see it's not the same
as the stamping for the engine number. You can see that numbers before
it have been obliterated. You can see that the digits are uneven..."

"But....?"

"This isn't the frame the bike started out with. I reckon someone
crashed it, nicked another bike, transferred everything, and re-stamped
the frame. It's been nicked. A long time ago, but this is a nicked
bike."

To cut a long story short, I said that if he could get a document from
the police saying it was 'clean', I'd have it. I mean, the ringing was a
quarter-century old.

He contacted Plod who said that the existing frame number wasn't on
their wanted list. Well, of course it bloody wasn't. It was the number
underneath it that was dodgy.

He contacted Suzuki GB who said that the visible frame number was for a
Japanese-market bike, not UK. That just made matters worse: someone had
been quite clever in their ringing. Shame they'd been hamfisted in the
stamping.

So, after consulting a Plod mate, who pointed out that there was no
statute of limitations on nicked vehicles, and that in my position I
shouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole, I said I wasn't having it, and
we didn't complete the purchase 'by mutual consent'.

And the prick left me neutral feedback. Which, if you check the Ebay FB
links, you'll see I responded to. I could have negged him, but I'm nice
like that: he really had never, ever checked and didn't know he had been
riding a stolen bike for over two decades.

The moral of this story? Always, always, always check the numbers
against the logbook. The seller may be straight, but not all the
previous owners.

Oh, and if that bike comes up for sale again - don't bid. I recommended
he break it for parts. I mean, the pannier kit alone is worth £200-odd.
Dismantle it, flog everything except the frame, which you scrap. Not
strictly legit, but the best you can hope for. After 25-odd years I
doubt it's on any register.

 

This may sound daft, but how come this bike has been through umpteen MoT
examinations and never been noticed before?

 

The seller asked that question, too.

I said that I reckoned most MoT testers simply couldn't be arsed. It had
a frame number, which was all they needed. Look at the number, shove it
down on the form.

Plus, I think, not all MoT testers are as clued-up about hookey bikes as
I am.

 

Have you ever seen an MOT tester check the numbers?

 

Yes. The one I normally use is particular about it. He even finds some
cleaning fluid and a cloth if the numbers are not clearly visible.

 

Ditto. My preferred place is very relaxed about everything else, but
went to some length to decipher the number on my Nordwest engined
Saturno that had been powder coated such that the frame number was a bit
faint. Whether, as TOG say, they give a **** other than recording it, I
can't say.

--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Voxan Roadster Gilera Nordwest * 2 Yamaha WR250Z |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 Morini 350 "Forgotten Error" |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

 

Two I've used have marked the MOT "not found" when it was clearly
visible. One of the bikes was a K75 with it on a plate rivetted to the
frame FFS (the other an H1 with it stamped I think on the headstock.)

 

Suppose someone had a frame with no number and a bike-in-a-box with V5C,
what's required? Punch the number into the frame, rivet on a plate with
the number, or could you stencil it on and lacquer over it? Assuming it
ever gets built and MOT'd.

 

IIRC ShiteOldHarleys didn't have frame numbers.

A few 1970s Hondas slipped through the net - I bought a CD175 that had
never had one.

In cases like this, yes, you can stamp whatever you want onto the frame.

I don't know if brand new frames have numbers. What happens if you bend
the frame in a prang and rebuild the bike on a new frame?

 

The SOBoxer I have has a s/h frame (bought legitimately) on which the old
number has been XXXXXed and the original frame number stamped alongside.
This was on the advice of the MOT station when it first was put on the road
after rebuilding it, and the bloke there was pretty clued up. However, I
still have the bent frame with the original number on it if anyone wants to
check.

 

110245201030


looks like it is back

 

Yup, that's the one.

OK, now the seller is *really* taking the piss. I believe he didn't know
about the hookey frame numbers before, but he sure as shit knows now.

 

Looks like he doesn't believe you:

Bike was a ringer with restamped frame number. Seller was unaware, to
be fair


Reply by ffhuey1 (21-Apr-08 14:21):
This is totaly unfounded and is his opinion only ! all agencies say it
is ok

 

With the new MOT system, if the V5 isn't available, the tester will
have to find the number, but, as I discovered with the Morini last
year, there's no guarantee they'll actually get it right. The tester
that did the Morini couldn't find the number in the record as he was
conflating the frame number with model numbers, on the same plate but
on a different line, so he entered the "new " number into the sysyem
which then generated a month later an error letter from DVLC. So it's
clear that while they might "check" the number, there's no guarantee
that they'd pick up anything untoward about a dodgy number.

 

When my fated Ducati 900 was rebuilt by the dealer, under warranty,
onto a new uncracked frame they stamped the old frame number on the
new frame, but in a *very* amateur fashion. If I'd have been buying
it I'd have been very dubious about its provenance.

 

That's because the new number is OK. Doh.

 

Drop Plod a brief line. "Bloke is selling Ringed bike"?

 

Nah. The thing is, he doesn't appear to understand how ringing works.

He asked Plod, and Plod said: "If the frame number matches the
logbook, it's OK."

He gave it to Suzuki and they said: "It's the number from a Jap market
bike, not UK, but it's OK."

What he *hasn't* done is take the bike to an engineer, Plod or even a
dealer, point at the headstock, and say: "Does that look kosher to
you?" He certainly hasn't made an attempt to decipher the number that
was originally on the headstock. He's in a state of denial about the
whole thing. Well, it's been his cherished bike for over 20 years.

I've seen quite a few ringers over the years. In almost all cases, the
owners have been unaware their bikes were dodgy, simply because they
never actually checked themselves. Always, always, always check engine
and frame numbers carefully.

 

Or just make sure you sell it on to someone who isn't TOG.


--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (b.rogers at ifrance.com)
\`\ | /`/
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

That's partly why the one on mine is XXXXXed, you can still read it, there's
no attempt to grind it off and re-stamp it. If anyone wants to, they can
check the provenance of the frame, and were I selling it, I'd probably do
that myself first.