A student wrecks, during MTC course.

My friend Kirby's galfriend, had a wreck this past weekend of Dec-3&4-05
as a student rider.
Skunk told me today.
Apparantly Diane grabed the front brakes, in a turn, and went down.
She and others were doing the circle riding, where the student riders,
are learning to follow, and paying attention to bikes in front and
behind. That was the objective for circle riding. We heard that a bike
got close to her, or something and she over reacted, I am assuming, and
hit the front brakes, in a slight curve and she lost control. Those
front brakes will get 'ya, if 'ya use 'em by themselves.
She went to the pavement and messed up her shoulder, or something. Shunk
wasnt for sure, he'll find out more tonight.
He did know that she had to go to EM, and she's hurt, stoved up at home,
can't work.
Makes one wonder how many student riders get hurt during the MTC weekend
schools? I imagine not many? They do sign wavers, my wife signed one,
when she completed her MTC, a month ago.
(BJAY)!

 

Very true. The MSF course I took, the instructors had a rule that if anyone
dropped the bike more than 3 times during any section of the course they
were done. It happened to one woman in my class....then again, she thought
she was a know-it-all because her boyfriend was a long-time rider. Go
figure.

 

‘‘ALBERT wrote:Better to get your experience crashing in a
parking lot, at low speed, on someone else's bike. ;-)


‘‘Albert,very true. The MSF course I took, the instructors had
a rule that if anyone dropped the bike more than 3 times during any
section of the course they were done. It happened to one woman in my
class....then again, she thought she was a know-it-all because her
boyfriend was a long-time rider. ’’
(iggy)

‘‘Iggy, I'clare. Don't take this the wrong way. I am serious. I
think its swell, that you made a response here,about an interesting
topic. We've talked about this many times before Pro and Con. My wife
took the course, and I was so proud of her. All she has to do now, is
take the written exam, to get a Texas ''M'' on her drivers' license. Let
me ask you, why do experienced riders, take the MTC course, around the
country? Is it for Insurance prupose? Other wise, I don't think I need
to take it! (BJAY)!

 

''ALBERT wrote:Better to get your experience crashing in a
parking lot, at low speed, on someone else's bike. ;-)


''Albert,very true. The MSF course I took, the instructors had
a rule that if anyone dropped the bike more than 3 times during any
section of the course they were done. It happened to one woman in my
class....then again, she thought she was a know-it-all because her
boyfriend was a long-time rider. ''
(iggy)

''Iggy, I'clare. Don't take this the wrong way. I am serious. I
think its swell, that you made a response here,about an interesting
topic. We've talked about this many times before Pro and Con. My wife
took the course, and I was so proud of her. All she has to do now, is
take the written exam, to get a Texas ''M'' on her drivers' license. Let
me ask you, why do experienced riders, take the MTC course, around the
country? Is it for Insurance prupose? Other wise, I don't think I need
to take it! (BJAY)!

===========================

Since you seem to be making some effort to quit the Texas Ebonics, I'll
answer.

While it does help with your insurance premiums, most experienced riders
take the MSF, ERC (and other advanced riding courses) because "experienced"
riders know that their learning doesn't stop just because they have that big
"M" endorsement on their license. As far as I'm concerned, there is no Con
to taking any kind of course that improves/upgrades your skillset.

Whenever I come across a rider who thinks they "know it all", I steer clear
of them....usually, they're an accident waiting to happen.

 

‘‘Iggy,‘‘Let me ask you, why do experienced riders, take the
MTC course, around the country? Is it for Insurance prupose? Other wise,
I don't think I need to take it! (BJAY)!
===========================
‘‘BJay, ''since you seem to be making some effort to quit the
Texas Ebonics, I'll answer.
While it does help with your insurance premiums, most experienced riders
take the MSF, ERC (and other advanced riding courses) because
"experienced" riders know that their learning doesn't stop just because
they have that big "M" endorsement on their license. As far as I'm
concerned, there is no Con to taking any kind of course that
improves/upgrades your skillset.
Whenever I come across a rider who thinks they "know it all", I steer
clear of them....usually, they're an accident waiting to happen.’’
IGGY)!
=================================
‘‘Iggy, very good point, being concerned when a motoryclist,
thinks he or she, ''knows it all'', and wanting to steer clear of that
person. I agree.

Though, to me there is a Con side. You said afa you are concerned,
there is no Con, about any one, experienced, or a novice taking a MTC
course.
Here's a thought. I think they should take the group of student riders,
out on a fairly vacant, side street, to do some of that riding. Students
need to experience meeting vehicles, stopping at intersections, stopping
behind vehiclea in some bit of traffic. They need to stop on an incline,
which teaches using the hand brake and clutch cordination, etc. This is
real riding.
Personally, I know I wouldnt learn much from the concept of the course
<my> wife took. I'm talking learning, not heping out on my insurance,ok.
Remember, I am talking with inside knowledge here.
Oh yeah, need to mention: riding and encountering some road curves, at
atleast 45mph.

This stuff is real riding. BTW, I'm teaching my wife all the above. I
take our vehicle, out behind the farm here, on a quite FM road,and she
rides the bike, and I encourage her to pass me, and I pass her, at about
45mph, she is learning to stop, when I stop. I am teaching her how to
stop on an incline, and pull up and out on the road. I purposely find a
turn, that has some bit of loose gravel for her to turn on. And much
more, that I think she needs. Pretty good Cons as far as I'm concerned.
(whatChaThink, grin?)
over, BJay)!

 

Has anyone suggested to you books by David L Hough (Proficient
Motorcycling)?
They're pretty good.


KAT SENS

 

‘‘This stuff is real riding. BTW, I'm teaching my wife all the
above. I take our vehicle, out behind the farm here, on a quite FM
road,and she rides the bike, and I encourage her to pass me, and I pass
her, at about 45mph, she is learning to stop, when I stop. I am teaching
her how to stop on an incline, and pull up and out on the road. I
purposely find a turn, that has some bit of loose gravel for her to turn
on. And much more, that I think she needs. Pretty good Cons as far as
I'm concerned. (whatChaThink, grin?) over, BJay)!

‘‘Bjay,has anyone suggested to you books by David L Hough
(Proficient Motorcycling)?
They're pretty good.
KAT SENS(wakko)

‘‘Wakko, not that one, but have read ohters,,here and there,
why,(?)have you got the book?’’ BJAy)!


'Ya'll take care'' --BJAY--

 

I'll second that thought. They are an easy read that when finished you
will have a far better understanding of the dynamics of riding.
Practice those dynamics and you will be a better rider.
--


Don
RCOS# 7
No Riding Today

2000 - Yamaha Venture Millenium Edition
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/radium1.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/venture.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/gem.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/highwood.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reynolds.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/sask.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/osoyoos.htm

 

‘Bjay,Has anyone suggested to you books by David L Hough
(Proficient Motorcycling)?
They're pretty good.’’
(wakko)

‘‘Wakko,I'll second that thought. They are an easy read that
when finished you will have a far better understanding of the dynamics
of riding. Practice those dynamics and you will be a better rider.’’
(Don of Calgary)

‘‘Don, sounds interesting.will you tell me one specific
<riding dynamic> that you personally learned, and found to be most
beneficial, from reading a 'Motorcycle Riding', Book?’’ (BJAY)!

 

I've heard about a course that is offered to law enforcement.. It is
reportedly far advanced for anything that is offered commericially .. I'd
be very enthusiastic about enrolling in that course, is I had an
opportunity.. This course is available in the metroplex area and I'm given
to understand that the enrollment is limited to law enforcement..

El Paso has the course and will offer it to civilians if they are sponsored
by someone in law enforcement.. A couple of friends on El Paso PD have
offered sponsorship to me, but that is a little far away for me to commute..

The Austin/San Antonio area should have that course for their mounted
officers, but I haven't heard of that one.. Regards

Bill Walker
Irving

 

I can tell you one thing (among others) that I picked up.
One tip Hough presented was to watch for cars turning more carefully when
riding with traffic on a one-way street. You are apt to have a car turn
right or left in front of you, cutting you off. Of course his writing would
detail this much more, but you get the gist.

That particular scenario never occurred to me before.

I've got all his books.

 

‘‘BILL WALKER states)‘‘I've heard about a course that is
offered to law enforcement.. It is reportedly far advanced for anything
that is offered commericially El Paso has the course and will
offer it to civilians if they are sponsored by someone in law
enforcement.. A couple of friends on El Paso PD have offered sponsorship
to me, but that is a little far away for me to commute..’’ Bill
W.)!

‘‘Bill unless the ElPaso Law Enfocement MTC is conducted over
a period of more days, than the MTC, for beginners, there wouldnt be any
commuting. Do you know the length of the course, how many days/hours?
The regular course that is popular around the country is 16 hours, in
two days, and ordinarilly conducted on weekends.’’ BJAY)!

 

‘‘sounds interesting.will you tell me one specific <riding
dynamic> that you personally learned, and found to be most beneficial,
from reading a 'Motorcycle Riding', Book?'' (BJAY)!

‘‘BJAY,I can tell you one thing (among others) that I picked
up. One tip Hough presented was to watch for cars turning more carefully
when riding with traffic on a one-way street. You are apt to have a car
turn right or left in front of you, cutting you off. Of course his
writing would detail this much more, but you get the gist.
That particular scenario never occurred to me before.’’ WAKKO)!

‘‘OKAY? hmmmmm? From your response above,, I am not too sure
that I comprehend how there could be very many different techniques of
riding in such a traffic situation, that an experienced motorcyclist
would not know. I have cautioned Honey about being well aware of the
surroundings when riding in <any> traffic situations. Riders have to pan
with their eyes 360 degrees constantly, and think as you look ahead,
before you approach, even when not in traffic.’’ BJAY)!

 

Yeah, you've said that twice already....and?

And with that attitude, it's no wonder you had to "lay 'er down" 5 times in
the past 4 years.

Then how do you know they don't have it? Jesus, you're dumb.

 

''sounds interesting.will you tell me one specific <riding
dynamic> that you personally learned, and found to be most beneficial,
from reading a 'Motorcycle Riding', Book?'' (BJAY)!

''BJAY,I can tell you one thing (among others) that I picked
up. One tip Hough presented was to watch for cars turning more carefully
when riding with traffic on a one-way street. You are apt to have a car
turn right or left in front of you, cutting you off. Of course his
writing would detail this much more, but you get the gist.
That particular scenario never occurred to me before.'' WAKKO)!

''OKAY? hmmmmm? From your response above,, I am not too sure
that I comprehend how there could be very many different techniques of
riding in such a traffic situation, that an experienced motorcyclist
would not know. I have cautioned Honey about being well aware of the
surroundings when riding in <any> traffic situations. Riders have to pan
with their eyes 360 degrees constantly, and think as you look ahead,
before you approach, even when not in traffic.'' BJAY)!

======================================

You ask for advice, then discount it when someone gives it. You are exactly
the type of rider I spoke of in my first reply to you. You think years
gives you all the answers....not so. Do yourself and your wife a favor and
both of you take a course. It will be money well spent.

 

Bjay I would ask you to expand on what you are looking for when you
are panning your eyes 360 degrees. First of all I am sure you didn't
mean you were physically panning 360 degrees. The thought of trying to
do that conjures up images from the Exorcist. But tell me what it is
you are looking for?

That car stopped waiting to turn left in front of you, what are you
looking at while you are watching it?

Then explain to me how to perform an emergency stop. After that work a
swerve into that emergency stop. Then add a manhole cover you have to
ride over during the emergency stop. Then do it all again on a wet
road.

What do you do when you pull up and stop at a red light?

How do you chose your line into a corner and why?

Do you brake, accelerate or stay smooth and even on the throttle when
entering a curve and why.

Which peg do you put your weight when performing a slow speed full
lock turn? Better yet tell me how you perform a full lock slow speed
turn? Which direction is it easier to perform a full lock slow speed
turn and why?

I am not picking on you or your comment but just trying to point out
there are different thresholds of "experience". Now maybe you can
answer all of those questions consistent with the tried and proven
riding techniques that are written about in books and taught in the
training courses. If you can I applaud you as a rider of some
experience, but I can tell you I rode for more than twenty years
before I understood counter steering. I rode for many more after that
before I gained even the minimal understanding I have now of riding
dynamics. And believe me I am not trying to pretend I am some kind of
expert, cuz I am not. I have learned just enough so I appreciate how
much more there is to learn.

Now after riding for two decades I used to claim 20 years of riding
experience, when in fact I had one years experience 20 times.

Today, I am a better rider than I was in any of those initial 20
years, not because I have continued to log more miles, but because I
have tried to learn more about riding these bikes we all enjoy. Hell I
even practice situational awareness when I am driving my car or the
company truck.

We had a guy over in Reeky who one day bragged about how he was riding
third in line with two of his friends. A truck pulled out in front of
the lead rider forcing the bikes to stop. The first two riders were
able to stop. The third rider couldn't so he pulled into the lane of
opposing traffic playing a game of chicken with the truck that had
forced his riding buds to stop. Now this guy claimed 40 years of
riding experience but with all that experience and at least three
seconds more time than his buds, why could he not stop as the others
did? Answer - He didn't know how. He had stopped his bike tens of
thousands of times but he couldn't do it anywhere near as fast as his
friends could.

I apologize for not reading all of this thread and I may have missed
some important stuff, but the one point I will make, is taking a
competent riding course will make any untrained rider better,
regardless of how many years of experience they have.

At the end of the day I have more fun riding now than I ever had
before, partially because I have a better understanding of what I am
doing and partially because riding is just plain fun.

Next spring I am signing up for an advanced rider course at the "Too
Cool Motorcycle School". (heh, heh, I love that name). My goal is to
take the Venture to a few track days. Can you imagine that road barge
at a track day? All those sporties are sure to laugh but I don't care.
If I enjoy it I will probably invest in a smaller sportier machine as
a second bike. Now there is no way I would take any bike to a track
day without the proper training before hand. Too dangerous for me and
the others on the track.

I can guarantee you I will be a better rider after the course than I
am now. Then I can honestly say I will have earned another year of
riding experience.
--


Don
RCOS# 7
No Riding Today

2000 - Yamaha Venture Millenium Edition
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/radium1.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/venture.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/gem.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/highwood.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reynolds.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/sask.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/osoyoos.htm

 

‘‘Bjay,You ask for advice, then discount it when someone gives
it. You are exactly the type of rider I spoke of in my first reply to
you. You think years gives you all the answers....not so. Do yourself
and your wife a favor and both of you take a course. It will be money
well spent.’’
(IGGY)

‘‘Hey Iggy, did you not get the part,where i said Honey took the
MTC, about a month ago. I even reported how proud I was, and how well
she done, and that it cost $165. Put your thinkng cap on. ahhh, you
recall now,huh?’’
(BJAY, uh grinning)!

 

‘‘Riders have to pan with their eyes 360 degrees constantly,
and think as you look ahead, before you approach, even when not in
traffic.''     BJAY)!


‘‘Bjay I would ask you to expand on what you are looking for
when you are panning your eyes 360 degrees. First of all I am sure you
didn't mean you were physically panning 360 degrees. The thought of
trying to do that conjures up images from the Exorcist. But tell me what
it is you are looking for?’’
Don of Calgary)!

‘‘Don, I am constantly panning from right to left, & observing
behind me thru my mirriors. I said, above with my eyes, not creening my
neck,(grin).
What am I looking for? Obviously, things that could cause me
problems(grin).
Like: cage drivers, dogs, road hazzards, oil spots, loose gravel, other
Riders, curbs, wow, everything imaginable.
I, personally, pan with my eyes, 90* to both the left and right,
hundreds of yards ahead, especially, in traffic. But, just as
importatntly, out on the roads, and highways. (I made up the 360* deal,
that's what I call it)
Example: My Honey and I, 2Up, following Daughter and Keith, traveling
and we were about 100 yards behind, etc. I turned on my left signal, to
stop up ahead, to take a brake. I waved and all, at Keith, had the
signal on, thinking he noticed, so we turned and stopped. He rode on out
of sight, We thought he'd turn around. We waited, he never came back.
Don, Keith didnt' observe my alerts, and we were 10 miles catching him,
He finally noticed I wasnt behind, and had stopped and about to come
back, when I pulled up. He is a rider who rarely looks in his rearView
mirriors. I blessed him out a bit, now he does. He hasnt been riding but
a couple of years, on street bikes’’. (BJAY)

 

TOP POST here by BJAY) Don, wow. Below is some good stuff, buddy. I will
have to take a little time to take that test below, that you submitted.
I am about to go play a round of golf, so I'll have to study it, and try
to come up with some intelligible answers.
Don the beginners course, that my wife completed, was just that, for
beginners. What you describe below, surely would be for experienced
motorcyclist. Which reminds me, of their advertisement suggesting, that
when one completes their course, they will have the knowlege and
experience of two years. You know and I know that is not possible. They
never rode away from a parking lot marked off. They never got over
20mph. They never rode in traffic, and on and on.
They were taught mainly how to ride and handle a bike at low speeds, of
which is very important.
I will respond again, on this later, thanks.
(BJAY)!

‘‘BJAY explain to me how to perform an emergency stop. After
that work a swerve into that emergency stop. Then add a manhole cover
you have to ride over during the emergency stop. Then do it all again on
a wet road.
What do you do when you pull up and stop at a red light?
How do you chose your line into a corner and why?
Do you brake, accelerate or stay smooth and even on the throttle when
entering a curve and why.
Which peg do you put your weight when performing a slow speed full lock
turn? Better yet tell me how you perform a full lock slow speed turn?
Which direction is it easier to perform a full lock slow speed turn and
why?
I am not picking on you or your comment but just trying to point out
there are different thresholds of "experience". Now maybe you can answer
all of those questions consistent with the tried and proven riding
techniques that are written about in books and taught in the training
courses. If you can I applaud you as a rider of some experience, but I
can tell you I rode for more than twenty years before I understood
counter steering. I rode for many more after that before I gained even
the minimal understanding I have now of riding dynamics. And believe me
I am not trying to pretend I am some kind of expert, cuz I am not. I
have learned just enough so I appreciate how much more there is to
learn.
Now after riding for two decades I used to claim 20 years of riding
experience, when in fact I had one years experience 20 times.
Today, I am a better rider than I was in any of those initial 20 years,
not because I have continued to log more miles, but because I have tried
to learn more about riding these bikes we all enjoy. Hell I even
practice situational awareness when I am driving my car or the company
truck.
We had a guy over in Reeky who one day bragged about how he was riding
third in line with two of his friends. A truck pulled out in front of
the lead rider forcing the bikes to stop. The first two riders were able
to stop. The third rider couldn't so he pulled into the lane of opposing
traffic playing a game of chicken with the truck that had forced his
riding buds to stop. Now this guy claimed 40 years of riding experience
but with all that experience and at least three seconds more time than
his buds, why could he not stop as the others did? Answer - He didn't
know how. He had stopped his bike tens of thousands of times but he
couldn't do it anywhere near as fast as his friends could.
I apologize for not reading all of this thread and I may have missed
some important stuff, but the one point I will make, is taking a
competent riding course will make any untrained rider better, regardless
of how many years of experience they have.
At the end of the day I have more fun riding now than I ever had before,
partially because I have a better understanding of what I am doing and
partially because riding is just plain fun.
Next spring I am signing up for an advanced rider course at the "Too
Cool Motorcycle School". (heh, heh, I love that name). My goal is to
take the Venture to a few track days. Can you imagine that road barge at
a track day? All those sporties are sure to laugh but I don't care. If I
enjoy it I will probably invest in a smaller sportier machine as a
second bike. Now there is no way I would take any bike to a track day
without the proper training before hand. Too dangerous for me and the
others on the track.
I can guarantee you I will be a better rider after the course than I am
now. Then I can honestly say I will have earned another year of riding
experience.

Don Binns)!

 

BJAY replied:

Bjay, you're missing Iggy's point. He said, "Do yourself and your wife a
favor and both of you take a course."

So, your wife has taken the course. You are very proud of her.
Now do Honey a favor and YOU take a motorcycle safety course. Not only
might you learn a thing or two, it might even save you some money on your
bike insurance premium.
If nothing else, take the Expert Course. You ride your own bike. Some
people who have been riding for years, take that course, often. I'm
planning on taking it this Spring, as a refresher. As Iggy stated, it's
money well spent and usually under $50.

My son was asked to be a teacher at the MSF school in Wichita Falls. I wish
he had taken the job, because I am sure he would have been an excellent
teacher and I could learn a thing or two, from him!

Season's Greetings and Ride Safe,

--
Sunny, IRPK (PK Riders), ISRA #7123
Texas Veterans Assoc., Chapter 3
'02 XVS650A "Deerslayer"
'99 XVS650A - Joe's "Deerslayer Too"
'84 V30 Magna (parting out)