91 Petrol Now $1-68 Litre

Where amy is in year 6 and molly will be in year prep next year, 2
blocks down from us at the local school. Town population 250.



G-S

 

Ah,population 250
I.

 

I remember some time ago when filling the waterbottle cost $8.70 and I
was complaining , filled a toy up a couple of days ago and 28 litres of
premium nearly sent me broke .

 

"Zebee Johnstone" wrote

And you don't need to get a special licence in most States.

Theo

 

In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 28 Apr 2006 01:09:06 GMT

You do for anything over 50cc.

Which isn't a) all scooters and b) many scooters outside very
innnercity.

Someone looking at a scooter compared to a GPx isn't looking at 50s.

Zebee

 

I must say, its not really hard getting a scooter licence. If you can't
do that in say 3-4 lessons you really shouldn't be on two wheels.

 

I've seen a couple of instances where people were looking at
scooters because, well, that's all they'd considered. On the
most recent occasion my "Have you considered one of these?"
<points to picture of Honda VTR> elicited the response "Oh yeah,
I hadn't even considered getting an actual bike".


GB

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sat, 29 Apr 2006 22:40:12 GMT

To me that means "I don't think bikes are for me really".

Scooters give them what they want....

I expect some people would find they prefer a bike to a scooter, but I
dunno it's that common. I think these days you really have to want to
have a bike... They are way more specialised and sport oriented (when
they are not baby harleys or dirtbikes) and thus unsuited for
commuting, and I think bike shops are generally way less useful for
commuters because their bread and butter is the bigbike punter not the
smallbike commuter. The scooter shops are aiming right at the
commuter demographic. No full leathers, no race posters, and
crucially salesmen who aren't seeing them as second best...


Zebee

 

That depends on your definition of who makes a commuter, though.

For someone who has to trudge in from Campbelltown, Penrith, Windsor or
Kellyville, something like an ER-6f/n Z750/F (which we don't get),
FZ6N/F (which we don't get), GSR600, CBF600F (which we don't get),
Hornet 600S (which we don't get), or a less hideous version of the
Deauville, fitted with a decent-sized factory-option waterproof topbox
would be a better option than a maxi-scooter. They'd be cheaper than
one, they'd sit on the freeway more easily, plus they're smaller and
lighter, which makes them more manoeuvrable and easier to manage.

What's needed is a bit of vision from the importers, and ads on tv which
point out that commuting on a mid-spec bike instead of in a car saves of
the order of $10 and 90 minutes a day. Alternately, an ad showing
someone circling a shopping centre carpark looking for a spot and having
first one, then a second, then a third topbox-fitted ER-6f plop into a
bike spot right next to the front door...

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:25:15 +1000

And on who is buying them

Yes, we don't get midsize commuter bikes here.

But then how much for one of those compared to 4 grand or so for a 200
or 250cc scooter? How much to buy, to register, to insure, to run,
to keep in tyres, to get serviced?

And why use a 650 when your 250 can do the speeds needed at the time
needed?

I doubt commuters are buying maxiscooters.


Zebee

 

I have to agree, a bike like a Kawasaki GPX250 or a Hyosung GT250 would
be cheaper to register, insure, service and keep in tyres than any 600
would. And it would still out accelerate most scooters

There's a guy down the road from here who commutes into the CBD on a
yamaha maxi scooter... of course we live 100k up the highway ;-)


G-S

 

Yes, but a GPX250 is a 15-year-old design, while the Hyosung looks like
it could be one. Park almost any 250 you care to name next to a current
car and they look every bit as dated and/or low-spec as they are. People
are going to want to have something "nice", and an ER-6f looks much
"nicer" than a GPX250.

Next, the very insubstantial size of 250's. They wiggle in a straight
line on the road, and they have very compact riding positions, just like
those sports-oriented bikes Zebee pointed out don't appeal to commuters.
Takes a while to find one with anything like a comfortable seat, too.

The small size also makes them difficult to hang topboxes and so forth
off of.

Finally, their power output. People are used to, and they like, the way
their car can sit on the freeway at relatively low revs and throttle
opening. For all but the sportiest 250's, this only works on level
ground. Something like Mt Ousley coming out of Wollongong, or the climb
into the foothills of the Blue Mountains out past Perith, is a
full-throttle proposition on a 250. People don't like that. It reminds
them too much of the Datto 120Y they used to have back in 1st year of uni.

The people who are buying scooters in the inner city are doing so
because they can afford an alternative to sitting in traffic in their
car, or squashed-in with a few dozen other sweaty plebs on a bus.

They can afford the fuel. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford to
drop 7-8 grand on a decent brand-new scooter while still hanging on to
their cars. What they save is time and aggravation. No more sitting in
traffic and no more fighting for parking. The savings in fuel and paid
parking costs are cherries on top of that.

That's precisely who maxi-scooters are for; people who have to commute
in from further than a few suburbs away. This is because if you're doing
those sorts of distances, you need more weather protection, stability,
storage space and cruising ability than a regular scooter allows.

Something like a Honda @125 needs to be kept pinned to sit on 100 on
level ground. Maxi-scooters dont, but as non-threatening as they are
with their variometer transmissions, they're also excessively bulky for
what they're required to do.

Outer-suburbs commuters are going to want to replace their Commodores,
Falcons and 4WD's with their two-wheeled equivalents. To my mind, that's
a 650 with a decent screen, mid-level bars, a wide seat and, crucially,
a topbox.

That means bikes like the ER-6f, Z750S, FZ6F, CBF600F and Hornet 600S.

11 grand for such a bike is only three grand more than the 8 grand most
inner-city commuters plop down for their scooters.

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:15:04 +1000

To you maybe. To most non-bikers, they are quite similar, and to
those buying scooters, they look like motorbikes, and don't have the
class of a vespa or vespa copy.

And compared to a scooter they are uncomfortable and difficult to
ride.

I haven't found 250s wiggly, or compact. I rode them in all weathers
all over Eastern Australia, and to Perth. Lots of people still ride
them who have bigger bikes or could buy bigger bikes.

Your bias is showing....

Most scooters have them as standard, and are physically smaller than
250s. A sporty 250 might be hard to hang a topbox off - although I
don't think so - but a CB250 Honda for example is easy enough. I've
seen enough GPxs with topboxes and gearsacks to think most people have
no trouble at all.

And a commuter is worried about freeway work how? The scooters I see
flying along the Anzac bridge at 80 seem OK, the one I met the other
day on the M4 wasn't having problems at 100. Most people commuting
aren't doing those speeds though. They are in the rush hour.

THe massive number of scooters I see every day aren't doing more than
I am - which is 40 a lot of the time, and sometimes up to 80 or 90.

And this is a common and well used commuter route is it?

Yup. And why would they buy a 600?

Try 4 grand. I see 5 Bugs/Bolwells/Arribas for every Vespa or Piaggio.

and they'd be not using a car why?

I doubt people looking at scooters are the ones doing 100km commutes.
They are the ones doing the rush hour drag. And wanting to ditch the
2nd car.

TO them, all motorbikes look the same, and are made by Harley
davidson.

Zebee

 

The GPX250 is a 15 year old design yes, but it's still around after 15
years unchanged because the original design was inspired. The bloody
things are reliable, cheap to run and nice to ride.

As for the Hyosung comments I strongly disagree! They are styled
similarly to numerous other sports tourers and the ER-6F looks like an
escapee from a bad 1980's science fiction movie (the naked one is
slightly better). I would take a fully faired Hyosung 650 over the
ER-6F in a flash IK (but I know you don't 'get' twins so that's ok

Not everyone (not most people in fact) are as tall as you are! And
remember that the fully faired Hyosung 250 is a similar size to the
Japanese 600's and 650's (almost identical riding position to the
excellent SV650).

I ride Jodz GPX250 on a semi regular basis and it doesn't 'wiggle in a
straight line' (seriously). I suspect this is more a result of you
being too tall for the bike and causing the wind drag to be applied very
high (higher than the bike was designed for). Can you tuck down behind
and RGV250 screen? If you can't then you are too tall for 250's, but
that doesn't mean you should assume your personal experiences apply to all.

Ventura bags are much more popular down here and kits are available for
most 250's.

Ummm errmmm this relates to my 2.5 litre Kia Carnival with 6 people in
it how? It certainly doesn't behave like that. Nor for that matter
does the Astra or the Lancer or the Ford courier. I suspect that you
are talking about the shrinking market segment 'the family 6'.

Not all places in Australia are as hilly as sydney and the blue
mountains! You are extending your personal situation across the
geographic extent of Australia and it doesn't really apply. Perth is
fairly flat, so is Adelaide, so is most of Melbourne and most of
Brisbane. In flatter cities 250's don't need to gear change much.

That's the inner city market, that's fairly small down here and there
are more regular bike commuters in Melbourne. And 250's make a better
commuter that a scooter down here. We don't have the 50cc on a car
licence thing either...

7 to 8 grand? Not many scooters I see parked in the city are of that
cost... most are cheap japanese or korean or chinese scooters and the
most of the rest that aren't tend to be 4 or 5 grand Vespa's. Maxi
scooters are _very_ rare.

Yes but most people aren't buying them, the guy I mentioned is the only
1 I've ever seen commuting on one. 250's etc are much more common.

I don't see outer suburban commuters replacing thier cars very much,
that's tending to be inner city dwellers where the smaller scooters work
well.

Down here they are asking for better public transport or buying more
fuel efficient cars.


G-S

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:13:18 +1000

I only see 50s in the CBD. THe ones commuting even from innerish
suburbs like me are on 125s mostly. (I'm on a 180.) The ones I see
on the weekends out and about are 150s and 200s.

Mostly taiwanese though. A fair few Piaggio Liberty 125s in North
Sydney, but don't seem them as much outside the richer areas. The
Bollwell/Bug dealers are flogging heaps and heaps of the Taiwanese
ones.

Lots of Aprilia Sport City 200s selling according to my scooter shop.
He's taken to painting them red or blue and says they walk out the
door even faster then Those are a 6 grand scooter I believe. He's
not selling as many as the ones who do the Taiwanese bikes are, but
they are selling.

The hot ones like my Runner are 8 grand new, but they aren't selling
to scooter commuters, they are selling to motorcyclists more than
first timers.

Be interesting to see if that changes. I suspect it is because they
don't seem scooter shops every day. The more that open on main
commuter arteries, the more people will think about it. A few well
planted stories can help too - the Herald has run a couple of scooter
stories which seemed to work.

Mind you, I suspect that the Vic climate scares more people off two
wheels. Colder and wetter... Sydney's been warm and dry for so long
I've forgotten what cold and wet *is*. I will be interested to see
how the scooter population copes with the wet. Usually there's a lot
more spacein the bike parks on a wet day, but I have the impression
it's not the scooters that are staying home.... Have to do some
counts.


Zebee

 

Yup, and both lose out to something like a Holden Astra in style stakes.
Repeat the exercise with a Gilera Runner 200, and the results would be
different.
Ditto with a budget 600, which, in order to achieve the aim of enticing
outer-suburbs commuters into leaving their cars at home, needs to
outpose a late-model large sedan, ute or 4WD.

How does that jibe with...

So? This isn't about you, or me, it's about coaxing people who commute
over longer distances out of their cars and onto bikes.

I'm not the one pissing up a wall about how far and wide I've ridden on
whatever-sized bikes. Stay on topic.

Yes, and if a guy rides past on a scooter with a topbox, you find
yourself thinking he's on his way to propose to someone...

....very few scooters have useful topboxes, ones which can take a
briefcase, or some tools, or a half-decent load of shopping.

A topbox you could fit onto a Z750S, on the other hand, or the topbox
that the Honda Deauville comes with stock...

Yes, but a CB250, like anything else that small and cheap, looks cheap,
unsophisticated and dull, even to the uninitiated.

Someone who commutes in a $60,000 LandCruiser is not going to entertain
the thought of switching to something which, to them, looks like what
they saw people getting around on the last time they were in Bali. Show
them a mid-spec 600, on the other hand, and you could be onto something...

Once someone lives more than 15km away from work, they don't cease to be
a commuter.

See my comments about most people not enjoying having to hold their
vehicle on the stop.

Everyone who commutes in along the F3, F6, M2, M4, M5 or M7 does, over
at least a portion of their journey.

Most of Wollongong and most of the Blue Mountains works in Metro
Sydney... as does most of the Central Coast, and most of the Southern
Highlands, for that matter. That'd easily amount to a hundred thousand
people.

Where do I say that *inner-city* comuters would be better served by a
budget 600 than a scooter?

My contention that the budget 600's would better serve the outer-suburbs
commuters, the ones who have to commute for long distances along
arterial roads and freeways.

Yes, it does seem plausible that for every mid-level IT professional or
finance officer who's had enough of sitting in gridlock, there would be
four or five secretaries or call-centre operators who've found
themselves able to afford an alternative to the bus.

For the same reason they don't in Europe... because for every minute
they would spend in free-flowing traffic on a freeway, they would spend
five stuck in gridlock on overcrowded arterials and, on most days, ten
minutes behind a freeway rear-ender or overturned truck... and then
they'd have to look for parking.

When I used to commute the 57km from Liverpool to Frenchs Forest along
the Cumberland Highway, Ryde Rd and Forest Way, the car would take just
over an hour and a half, despite the route being 90% multi-lane
arterial. Too many cars and trucks trying to squeeze through too many
traffic lights. The ZX9 used to be able to get me there in just over an
hour, just by virtue of being able to hold 20kph where everyone else had
to sit still.

Sorry, but that's crap. There would a *much* higher proportion of lapsed
riders in the outer suburbs and city fringes than in the inner city. Not
only would these people be less than totally ignorant about bikes,
they'd also be likely to still retain their bike licenses.

They'd also be the ones with mental barriers about scooters and cheap,
basic, small-capacity bikes, the same mental barriers which lead to them
commuting in BA Falcons instead of, respectively, current-model Excels
or KC Lasers.

To the general public, bikes like the ER-6f, the Z750, FZ6N, GSR600 or,
better, their faired, accessory-topbox-sporting versions we should be
getting here, but don't, are completely invisible. And a lot of people
really don't get ideas without advertising, marketing or other forms of
publcity planting the seed there.

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:03:03 +1000

So if style isn't an issue, it isn't an issue. You said it was one
now it's not?

I think the runner's ugly my own self!

I dunno you can compare them. If people are after image, they have
one in mind. I would suspect that if image is thuoght of at all, it's
the Cruiser image. Or the Vespa one.

When browsing in scooter shops, the "that's nice" comments came from
women (not surprising) and they liked most of the scooters except the
sports ones like the runner or speedfight. The men liked the rather
car-like lines of the sport city according to my scootershop.

Because I don't think "wiggly" or "compact" are the only ways something
can be "difficult to ride" or "uncomfortable".

Uncomfortable includes things like footpegs, handlebars, seat, riding
stance. Difficult to ride includes things like weight, turning
circle, low speed ease, gears.

But "compact" for a 250 is you, not me. Ditto "wiggly".

And I thought it was about all commuters, not just long distance ones.

Personally, I don't think you will get many out of their cars and
onto two wheels for a commute of more than 30km or so. fear of water
mainly.

I think most people who swap will swap to scooters from cars or public
transport, and for the closer distances. I think those who live
further away will not think bikes as attractive. Odd really, in that
the M4 and M5 carparks would seem perfect for bikes, has anyone who
uses those seen more bikes?

I've seen heaps more in the areas I move in, but they aren't long
distance unless those bikes are coming from further out which I can't
tell.

YOu were the one who thought a 250 wasn't enough bike. I show it is,
and therefore am on topic.

Do I? News to me. Most of the scooters I see have topboxes. THe
bigwheel ones need them because they don't have space under the seat,
the smallwheels do because the space under the seat isn't useful for
things like latptops.

I have one for the Runner, but it cracked - I don't know why, I
suspect someone who borrowed the bike had trouble getting their leg
over (It's a bastard of a thing to get on if you have short legs) and
gave it a bit of a bashing.

Once I get round to fixing it, it will be back on the bike, because
it's so useful.

Depends. The small one on mine can't quite fit my large laptop, the
larger one on the Arriba I nearly bought definitely could. I see
laptops being disgorged from 125 Libertys quite often.

Between my underseat storage and my topbox, I manage shopping fine.

Sure, the one on my Guzzi is bigger than the one on the scooter.
Doens't mean the one on the scooter is useless, it certainly isn't.
Nor do I think that means someone will buy a Deauville.

I don't think people will buy a CB instead of a scooter. But the
subject was "can't put a topbox on a 250", not "CB250s aren't sexy".

Are those the people who are going to commute on a two wheeler?
Messing up their suits?

Or is it the ones who are in the older Corolla, thinking it needs
replacing, but damned if I want to sit in traffic.

And how much high speed freeway work happens in rush hour?

I dunno, when I rode the 150 scooter i nearly bought, it wasn't "held
on the stop" because as an automatic it didn't change note much no
matter what I did.

Really? must tell people who live in Paramatta and go to the city
then. Or the ones who get on the M5 at Kingsgrove.

Most of? Wow!

You said, as far as I understaood it, that everyone would. No
restriction on them. If you implied only those with 60km+ jouirneys
would, then I missed that.

That's reasonable, but not stated till now.

I don't know how many woukd buy a bike though. They *have* the car
now. I dunno how many would think a bike worth the hassle.

Come to the city some time, and talk to people at the bike parks. You
might be surprised.

I think most are riding instead of public transport, you just don't
quite get who uses public transport into Sydney at least, and I
suspect Melbourne too.

Put it this way.... where I work there are people who salary package
cars at all levels of the organisation, and those who use the company
loan to buy annual transport cards ditto.

When I pass cars gridlocked on the city west link, I see all kinds of
people. When I chat to people at the bike parks, I see all kinds of
people.

How many maxi scooters do you see a day? I have no idea how many have
been sold or where they are, but the only ones I have seen have been
on weekends with older people riding them.

Sure, I split a lot of the way through Frederick and the City West.
But I don't travel that far, and the number of other bikes drops like
a stone in the wet. I dunno how many people on a long trip will
switch toa bike. We are hoping many, but are they?

I think it's a huge jump, bigger for the long trips, and big bikes are
too expensive to buy and to keep. SOmeone who is used to a car finds
the cost of tyres is shocking!

Would there? How do you know that? And oddly, the few I've talked to
have rather obviously not been going to buy a bike. Whereas the
questions I get about bikes are from people who don't have one and
want one.

Maybe the circles I move in. But also riding odd bikes and being
female, people talk to me. I do get a lot of "used to ride abike"
but it is almost always followed by "wouldn't ride one now, too
dangerous" or "missus would kill me" or "can't wear leathers at work"
and if I say it's not that bad, there's a really strong resistance.

But the inner city non riders are all about "easy to ride? Oh, I see
them go past all the time" and "how much are they?".

The latest MCC survey is due out soon, and when it is collated we
might get a bit more insight to how many current riders are returned.

The biggest problem of course is finding the ones who haven't come
back....

I agree that there could be more.

But I'm not sure what would sell really. Look at car ads - are they
selling convenience and value for money? Nah, they sell Kakadu and
racing and aggression. Same as bike ads are selling. Aimed at
fantasy.

What would a deauville ad look like to convince someone it's better
than a car? REmember... it can't mention lanesplitting!

I suspect that the single best thing for motorcycling would be the
official legalising of lanesplitting, and the addition of advanced
stoplines.

Zebee

 

That's pretty much why the young lady who I 'introduced'
to the VTR and similar had it in her head that she wanted
a scooter. She passed a big scooter shop on the way to and
from work every day, but really hadn't been exposed to bikes
at all.


GB

 

"IK" wrote

$10 and 90 minutes a day? How far are you commuting? To Sydney from
Canberra?

Theo

 

In aus.motorcycles on Tue, 02 May 2006 00:33:20 GMT

I think it will depend exactly on the commute - I can believe that the
M4 carpark can get that clogged, if you are starting from Penrith.
Problem is that it requires you to break the law, and you can be done
for 3 points and $175 if they are are feeling nice, and 6 points and
$450 if they are not.

Gioven that, I dunno anyone would be willing to advertise in those
terms
Zebee